Nick Art

How did you proceed your argument?
You should point out that the late arrival will make you miss an event or a meeting and the shedule change is therefore totally unacceptable. Mention that you need to arrive before XY in time and make it their problem to fix.
If they point out that only mention that you don't like wasting time and always plan on point (time wise) and that therefore even such a small change does mess up your plans and therefore drastically alters the carriage contract you have.

But sadly since the amount of times you called Oliver is right.

gonebabygone

Actually I probably only have one or two requests logged on my account, the other times I simply explained the situation without giving my reservation info.

I tried sending an email to their complaints department, but all they did was route me back to the phone line...!

I am starting to get the message that contrary to somewhat popular belief, there is no way to get a refund from SN for this situation.

I'm ready to take the loss but if anyone has any other suggestions I'm all ears

gonebabygone

That's very helpful and it's essentially what I explained but to no avail. I was amazed by the uniformity of the responses, at no point did they communicate that there was even a sliver of hope that something could be done (Eg. 'Let me check with _____'). It was simply 'according to the conditions of your ticket' each and every time.

NYC1

If I believed that I was “in the right” and the airline would not budge, I’d contest the charge on my credit card and book another flight that works with the one that I already have. With Amex this works well but the whole thing is a pain in a$$. Booking multiple tickets like this is causing the problem to begin with. Not a criticism but you’re taking a risk when doing so (at a minimum of a big hassle dealing with people on the phone).

televisor

Indeed. If your plan cannot survive a 25 minute change it wasn't realistic to begin with.

Now note the following quotation from Brussels airlines COC - they do allow for refunds in certain circumstances:
" If, after you purchase your Ticket, we make a significant change to the scheduled flight time, which is not acceptable to you, you will be entitled to a refund in accordance with Article 10.2."

But, any reasonable person would agree that 25 minutes is not significant. You may think otherwise, but if you search online you'll see that, depending on airline, significant is at least 2 hours, in some cases at least 12 hours. If it came to it, courts would likely agree. (I'm not sure what courts would count as significant, but if we look at e.g. EU261 we see that the smallest period at which delay compensation occurs is 2 hours, so that would be a good enough starting point.) Do also remember that the COC explicitly state that schedule changes can occur, so you implicitly accepted the possibility of minor schedule changes without compensation as part of the booking process.

(My understanding is that you'd generally be entitled to a refund if the schedule change is within 14 days of flight, but that appears not to be the case.)

Now I personally think that it would be better if SN did grant you the refund in this case as a token gesture of pity, but you still need to accept that from a legal standpoint you don't have a leg to stand on.

Flying Lawyer

There is no "general rule". If I want to fly at 10 pm because it is convenient to me for what reason ever, I do not want to fly at 9.30 pm. May it be beause I have a dinner until 8 pm, meetings, a train or whatever. I have cancelled tickets more than once for changes less than 30 minutes.

thbe

I don't agree. First of all a "significant change" depends on the individual circumstances. And the individual in that case is always the passenger. Of course a 25 minutes change can make a significant difference. In the case of the OP it does for sure.

The airlines rules are just defining, if a change is significant for sure, for everyone and in every case without any doubt. And even then they vary a lot.

Plus: If 25 minutes can't be a significant change, why is SN changing the schedule for that? For fun? Just for changing something? No, you don't change the schedule for fun. If it's significant enough for the airline to change the schedule, then it can be significant for the passenger as well.

In general, agreements must be kept. It's a fact, that SN has changed the transportation contract without the OP agreeing with that. That is not keeping an agreement. That is breaking a contract.

Plus EU261 maybe apply - if a change of the scheduled departure time is a cancellation plus an offer to reroute - and for sure SN doesn't want to find out, if that is the case. It would be similar to the Bosman case in football.

To be clear: We are not talking about any kind of compensation. I agree, that it is difficult - but not impossible - to get that in this case. We are talking about refunding the payment for an upcoming service contract, because SN is not able to fulfil it anymore.

I'm as sure as you can be, that SN would lose that case in court. But SN will refund before. They just didn't do that yet, because they are greedy, incompetent and they think, that they won't get sued by a Canadian customer. And I think, in that case they will get away with that.

Flying Lawyer

Than I am not reasonable either. If I book a flight that brings me into London at 8 am for my 9 am meeting, I do not want to be on an 8.30 flight. Agreed, every flight can be delayed, but if I plan an extra hour for every delay then - given the 135 flights I took last year - this would cost me 5,625 full days of my life planing for airlines not sticking to their contracts. It is reasonable to expect that airlines honor their contracts and therefore 25 minutes is signifcant

LondonElite

EC261 absolutely does not apply here. The legislation was never intended to cover minor timing issues.

To the OP: you plan was never realistic in the first place. When you book separate tickets you have two different contracts. It is general wisdom that you leave hours or overnight between separate tickets, not minutes, because you don't have the protection afforded under a single contract. No matter how many times you call, you will not get what you want here.

thbe

Not true. A cancelation doesn't need any timing issues to give the passenger the right to withdraw from contract and to get full refund. And cancelations are an important part of EU261.

The legislation intended to stop the airlines playing games with their customers. Changing the scheduled departure time can be part of that game as it takes effects on other EU261 rights as well.

LondonElite

Who said anything about a cancelled flight?

televisor

Then don't book a ticket whose conditions of carriage explicitly state that the schedule can change?

Or if you do choose to book a flight with such conditions, book a fare that allows full refunds no questions asked?

Do note that EU261 could be relevant (they talk about cancellation, but schedule change is effectively equivalent for all intents and purposes):
- 7-14 days before a flight: If a flight is cancelled and the new flight leaves more than 2 hours early or arrives more than 4 hours later, then compensation would be due. If we turn that one around, a change of less than 2 hours would be perfectly acceptable.
- Less than 7 days before a flight, similar rules except the allowances are 1 hour earlier / 2 hours later.

Note carefully the threshholds given there. A court would likely use them in evaluating such a case.

It's all good and well to argue that 25 minutes is significant, but you don't need to convince us. You need to convince the airline, and ultimately the courts. And you're unlikely to succeed.

televisor

Note also, at least the LH internal guidelines use a 2 hour threshhold for refunds:
"In case a long term schedule change is causing a departure/arrival delay of more than 2h or in case of a short term flight cancellation the passenger is entitled for a refund if booked on a flight operated and ticketed by a Lufthansa Group airline"
https://aviacenter.ru/files/help-des...-changes-2.pdf

Now, SN isn't LH, but it's the closest I could find - and good enough as an indication of a threshhold where you might be taken seriously when travelling on a nonrefundable ticket. Is it perhaps safe to assume that LH based their rules on EU261, so other airlines would too?

thbe

Cancellation (and IDB) doesn't need any delay to give the passenger the right to reimbursement. You find some of my arguments in post #10 of this thread. In short:
For EU261 ‘cancellation’ means the non-operation of a flight which was previously planned (…). A flight is defined by day, flight number plus scheduled departure time or route. If an airline change the scheduled departure time, the previously planned flight is non-operating.

Plus: Delays are based on the scheduled time. If the airlines are free to change the scheduled time for up to 2 hours, they could avoid compensation for every delay of up to 4/5/6 hours, compared to the up to 2/3/4 hours following EU261.

In every case of cancellation the passenger has the right to reimbursement, no matter if there is or will be any delay and no matter when the flight was cancelled. So if you think as well, that a schedule change is effectively equivalent for all intents and purposes of EU261 to a cancellation, then the OP has the right to get the ticket fully refunded.

Your points are about an additional compensation, but the OP is not asking for a compensation. He just wants his miles or money back.

LondonElite

I think you are aiming to hurt windmills, but I don’t see any payout for the OP.