A personal rant on Lufthansa's IT system
Jun 17, 2019, 5:40 am
#16
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
If I follow you correctly, you are using my post count to judge the validity of my statements. If so, that would be fallacious (it'd be essentially an argumentum ad verecundiam).
, I think you are suggesting that group-think has taken hold of this thread, and contributors are not properly considering your argument simply because of your newby status.I know there was reference to your low post count, but that was because it suggests you have not been around long enough to be fully aware of the frustrations caused by the mercurial nature of the LH/M&M websites, and the "features" introduced in recent updates to those sites.
Some of that frustration in no doubt attributable to difficulty some have in adapting to change, but most is down to obfuscation, even obliteration, of very simple patterns of access to information and web-based processes.
If there is a greater good we are making sacrifices for, that has yet to be revealed.
So while your explanation could well be 100% accurate, in our environment friend Occam fingers Lufthansa IT as the most likely cause of difficulties we have interacting with its applications and systems.
Jun 17, 2019, 6:10 am
#17
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 66
@purch:
I have two things to say.
1.) All code and all digital services contain bugs. Think about consumer-facing tech from the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, Oracle, or Microsoft. I can name you an extremely high-impact and critical bug for each and every one of those tech businesses. Then think about software and services from the likes of MasterCard, Nestle, Deutsche Bahn, or Marriott. I can name you an extremely high-impact, critical bug for each and every one of these non-tech businesses.
I don't see any evidence tech problems occur more frequently with LH. To the contrary, I would argue LH has long been at the forefront of providing digital services. Many things that LH allows you to do online or via app have no equivalent on other carriers' digital services. And on LH, most of those things just work.
2.) As somebody who has not only worked in IT but also in tech support: Many if not most things users claim are problems on the server/program/app/service side are in fact user errors. This is not to absolve the developers. Sometimes users make mistakes because a service (such as a web interface) is designed poorly. But the fact remains that often users make errors because they lack basic IT competence, because they are tired/drunk, because they are unable to register and adapt to changes, etc.
What I love about FT is that the discussion is mostly matter-of-factly and not as agitated as, say, on Youtube or Facebook. Why not try to keep it that way in this thread?
A pointless rant doesn't resolve any issue. If there is an issue, people should report it such that it can be reproduced. Often time, it will turn out its just a user error. But if its a genuine error, there will be a better chance to get it fixed if it is reported in a systemtic fashion.
I have two things to say.
1.) All code and all digital services contain bugs. Think about consumer-facing tech from the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, Oracle, or Microsoft. I can name you an extremely high-impact and critical bug for each and every one of those tech businesses. Then think about software and services from the likes of MasterCard, Nestle, Deutsche Bahn, or Marriott. I can name you an extremely high-impact, critical bug for each and every one of these non-tech businesses.
I don't see any evidence tech problems occur more frequently with LH. To the contrary, I would argue LH has long been at the forefront of providing digital services. Many things that LH allows you to do online or via app have no equivalent on other carriers' digital services. And on LH, most of those things just work.
2.) As somebody who has not only worked in IT but also in tech support: Many if not most things users claim are problems on the server/program/app/service side are in fact user errors. This is not to absolve the developers. Sometimes users make mistakes because a service (such as a web interface) is designed poorly. But the fact remains that often users make errors because they lack basic IT competence, because they are tired/drunk, because they are unable to register and adapt to changes, etc.
What I love about FT is that the discussion is mostly matter-of-factly and not as agitated as, say, on Youtube or Facebook. Why not try to keep it that way in this thread?
A pointless rant doesn't resolve any issue. If there is an issue, people should report it such that it can be reproduced. Often time, it will turn out its just a user error. But if its a genuine error, there will be a better chance to get it fixed if it is reported in a systemtic fashion.
Jun 17, 2019, 7:31 am
#18
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1P-1MM, Marriott LT Titanium
Posts: 3,930
@purch:
I have two things to say.
1.) All code and all digital services contain bugs. Think about consumer-facing tech from the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, Oracle, or Microsoft. I can name you an extremely high-impact and critical bug for each and every one of those tech businesses. Then think about software and services from the likes of MasterCard, Nestle, Deutsche Bahn, or Marriott. I can name you an extremely high-impact, critical bug for each and every one of these non-tech businesses.
I don't see any evidence tech problems occur more frequently with LH. To the contrary, I would argue LH has long been at the forefront of providing digital services. Many things that LH allows you to do online or via app have no equivalent on other carriers' digital services. And on LH, most of those things just work.
2.) As somebody who has not only worked in IT but also in tech support: Many if not most things users claim are problems on the server/program/app/service side are in fact user errors. This is not to absolve the developers. Sometimes users make mistakes because a service (such as a web interface) is designed poorly. But the fact remains that often users make errors because they lack basic IT competence, because they are tired/drunk, because they are unable to register and adapt to changes, etc.
What I love about FT is that the discussion is mostly matter-of-factly and not as agitated as, say, on Youtube or Facebook. Why not try to keep it that way in this thread?
A pointless rant doesn't resolve any issue. If there is an issue, people should report it such that it can be reproduced. Often time, it will turn out its just a user error. But if its a genuine error, there will be a better chance to get it fixed if it is reported in a systemtic fashion.
I have two things to say.
1.) All code and all digital services contain bugs. Think about consumer-facing tech from the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, Oracle, or Microsoft. I can name you an extremely high-impact and critical bug for each and every one of those tech businesses. Then think about software and services from the likes of MasterCard, Nestle, Deutsche Bahn, or Marriott. I can name you an extremely high-impact, critical bug for each and every one of these non-tech businesses.
I don't see any evidence tech problems occur more frequently with LH. To the contrary, I would argue LH has long been at the forefront of providing digital services. Many things that LH allows you to do online or via app have no equivalent on other carriers' digital services. And on LH, most of those things just work.
2.) As somebody who has not only worked in IT but also in tech support: Many if not most things users claim are problems on the server/program/app/service side are in fact user errors. This is not to absolve the developers. Sometimes users make mistakes because a service (such as a web interface) is designed poorly. But the fact remains that often users make errors because they lack basic IT competence, because they are tired/drunk, because they are unable to register and adapt to changes, etc.
What I love about FT is that the discussion is mostly matter-of-factly and not as agitated as, say, on Youtube or Facebook. Why not try to keep it that way in this thread?
A pointless rant doesn't resolve any issue. If there is an issue, people should report it such that it can be reproduced. Often time, it will turn out its just a user error. But if its a genuine error, there will be a better chance to get it fixed if it is reported in a systemtic fashion.
While you are correct that bugs do happen, there are multiple examples of issues that LH IT seems unwilling, or unable to address.
Jun 17, 2019, 9:30 am
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 36
Hi there, this is OP, thank you for the replies.
Couple for clarificarions:
1/ I'm not trying to single out LH or bring just anectodal evidence for a random rant. I am convinced they have an intrinsic issue for being so much behind your average airline. Never had issues getting all my miles with countless airlines. I would never think double-checking since 10+ years.
2/ Everything I mentioned in the first post were observed with LH only, and pretty much NEVER occurred to me with other airlines in years of travel. Never had an issue even with "lower tier" airlines. The issue lies obviously within lufthansa. At the very least they would let me choose my seat when I call their customer support which they didn't.
3/ I did submit the issues to LH customer support weeks ago. They never replied, except of course some automated email telling me they would reply soon. Another issue of them I guess?
Couple for clarificarions:
1/ I'm not trying to single out LH or bring just anectodal evidence for a random rant. I am convinced they have an intrinsic issue for being so much behind your average airline. Never had issues getting all my miles with countless airlines. I would never think double-checking since 10+ years.
2/ Everything I mentioned in the first post were observed with LH only, and pretty much NEVER occurred to me with other airlines in years of travel. Never had an issue even with "lower tier" airlines. The issue lies obviously within lufthansa. At the very least they would let me choose my seat when I call their customer support which they didn't.
3/ I did submit the issues to LH customer support weeks ago. They never replied, except of course some automated email telling me they would reply soon. Another issue of them I guess?
Jun 17, 2019, 9:30 am
#20
Moderator: SAS
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: BLL & CPH & ZRH
Programs: LX, SK EBD (*G)
Posts: 3,146
Just because something is average doesn‘t make it good.
I think the issue really is that the base system is quite dated already and has only bern patched to be up to date, instead of introducing a fresh system. But I don‘t have enough knowledge about amadeus and it‘s customizeability to really judge on this.
I think the issue really is that the base system is quite dated already and has only bern patched to be up to date, instead of introducing a fresh system. But I don‘t have enough knowledge about amadeus and it‘s customizeability to really judge on this.
Jun 17, 2019, 9:50 am
#21
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,961
Just because something is average doesn‘t make it good.
I think the issue really is that the base system is quite dated already and has only bern patched to be up to date, instead of introducing a fresh system. But I don‘t have enough knowledge about amadeus and it‘s customizeability to really judge on this.
I think the issue really is that the base system is quite dated already and has only bern patched to be up to date, instead of introducing a fresh system. But I don‘t have enough knowledge about amadeus and it‘s customizeability to really judge on this.
I'm working in a similar environment, public electric utilities. Why similar? Because their primary business is not "digital", it is delivering energy to the people very much like Lufthansa business is not delivering digital services but flying planes from A to B. Next similarity is that the back-end is stuffed with ancient legacy systems which are hard to maintain, harder to upgrade or even migrate onto modern architectures and platform. Hard in, yes... doable but people like me will charge an arm an a leg for it.
So, rather than doing that, they patch the issues and try to keep those zombie systems alive. Which sooner or later ends up in broken interfaces and a messed up data-model. And third, at the same time customer services was discovered to be a revenue generating department if you can use them to upsell products or lower capex/opex through customer initiatives. A lot of the digital services are born in that departments pushing down towards the core business units. And when both sides connect... well, you know what happens if stars collide, do you?
Last but not least factor which I see is pretty much similar in both businesses, IT departments are not run buy IT people - or at least the important decision are not taken within the IT departments but several layers higher up... with very little view on complexity and impact of the overall architecture and solution. That's why you need a strong CIO in those companies, but I haven't seen many of them yet.
And I agree, LHs digital services are a good average. Not great, not too bad. Workable. About the whole "cannot reserve seats" discussion, to be honest I feel that is part of the plan. They make it as unpleasant as possible to book via third parties or codeshares to have customer book direct with the airline next time. Too bad, if then the seat reservation isn't working as well - which to be honest never happened to me on LH itineraries booked via LH.com.
Actually a lot of banks and insurance companies are the same. Have seen so many system still running on mainframe hosts with Cobol in the recent years... try to modernize them! Again, doable... but at insane cost.
Jun 18, 2019, 1:24 am
#22
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: FRA (formerly JNB)
Programs: LH M&M
Posts: 169
@purch:
I have two things to say.
1.) All code and all digital services contain bugs. Think about consumer-facing tech from the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, Oracle, or Microsoft. I can name you an extremely high-impact and critical bug for each and every one of those tech businesses. Then think about software and services from the likes of MasterCard, Nestle, Deutsche Bahn, or Marriott. I can name you an extremely high-impact, critical bug for each and every one of these non-tech businesses.
I don't see any evidence tech problems occur more frequently with LH. To the contrary, I would argue LH has long been at the forefront of providing digital services. Many things that LH allows you to do online or via app have no equivalent on other carriers' digital services. And on LH, most of those things just work.
2.) As somebody who has not only worked in IT but also in tech support: Many if not most things users claim are problems on the server/program/app/service side are in fact user errors. This is not to absolve the developers. Sometimes users make mistakes because a service (such as a web interface) is designed poorly. But the fact remains that often users make errors because they lack basic IT competence, because they are tired/drunk, because they are unable to register and adapt to changes, etc.
What I love about FT is that the discussion is mostly matter-of-factly and not as agitated as, say, on Youtube or Facebook. Why not try to keep it that way in this thread?
A pointless rant doesn't resolve any issue. If there is an issue, people should report it such that it can be reproduced. Often time, it will turn out its just a user error. But if its a genuine error, there will be a better chance to get it fixed if it is reported in a systemtic fashion.
I have two things to say.
1.) All code and all digital services contain bugs. Think about consumer-facing tech from the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, Oracle, or Microsoft. I can name you an extremely high-impact and critical bug for each and every one of those tech businesses. Then think about software and services from the likes of MasterCard, Nestle, Deutsche Bahn, or Marriott. I can name you an extremely high-impact, critical bug for each and every one of these non-tech businesses.
I don't see any evidence tech problems occur more frequently with LH. To the contrary, I would argue LH has long been at the forefront of providing digital services. Many things that LH allows you to do online or via app have no equivalent on other carriers' digital services. And on LH, most of those things just work.
2.) As somebody who has not only worked in IT but also in tech support: Many if not most things users claim are problems on the server/program/app/service side are in fact user errors. This is not to absolve the developers. Sometimes users make mistakes because a service (such as a web interface) is designed poorly. But the fact remains that often users make errors because they lack basic IT competence, because they are tired/drunk, because they are unable to register and adapt to changes, etc.
What I love about FT is that the discussion is mostly matter-of-factly and not as agitated as, say, on Youtube or Facebook. Why not try to keep it that way in this thread?
A pointless rant doesn't resolve any issue. If there is an issue, people should report it such that it can be reproduced. Often time, it will turn out its just a user error. But if its a genuine error, there will be a better chance to get it fixed if it is reported in a systemtic fashion.
TBH I don't think the conversation has been agitated at all. This is a forum and people just relate their experiences. When those experiences are bad, maybe it comes across as ranting. Ok I know OP used the word "rant" but I didn't picture the op with a red face and shouting while I read the post
Jun 18, 2019, 7:54 am
#23
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,132
LH Group ditched the ancient Amadeus and Unisys backbone in 2012-14, and run everything in Altea. BR has done the same, probably sticking to the Star Alliance CITP program. The things the OP laments are more rooted in the fact that his/her TA doesn't seem to use Amadeus and the translation of what is in their system doesn't arrive in the CRS of the airlines.
The digtization of the airlines busines has been dramatic, remember the entire system was paper based only a few years ago. But people forget this. Plus the business model is changing rapidly, so that backends can't keep pace. The ancilliary business of charging for seats et al only cropped up 3-5 years ago, far before the Altea system was conceived. Amadeus and other CRS are constantly playing catch up.
The digtization of the airlines busines has been dramatic, remember the entire system was paper based only a few years ago. But people forget this. Plus the business model is changing rapidly, so that backends can't keep pace. The ancilliary business of charging for seats et al only cropped up 3-5 years ago, far before the Altea system was conceived. Amadeus and other CRS are constantly playing catch up.
Jun 19, 2019, 6:06 am
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,551
It's incredible that Ryanair have built a system that just works isn't it? I'm happy to be corrected, but I have never had an issue where their DCS was down so flights were delayed or canx on FR. (Happened to me on BA and LH). They can so easily board pax just with a sequence number.
No tickets, so that works even better, so simple to rebook and change pax.
Sells the seats, issues the BP without issue, Fast Track there if you pay for it. Easy to book extra seat to get your fake European Business Class, just book a ticket with "EXTRA SEAT" as the pax name, it's a massive fuss with legacies, you can't do it online.
Very little overselling.
Altea is not just playing catch up with the changing face of the legacies, they are ALL playing catch up with the likes of FR.
And they built it themselves? Do you know anything about that oliver?
No tickets, so that works even better, so simple to rebook and change pax.
Sells the seats, issues the BP without issue, Fast Track there if you pay for it. Easy to book extra seat to get your fake European Business Class, just book a ticket with "EXTRA SEAT" as the pax name, it's a massive fuss with legacies, you can't do it online.
Very little overselling.
Altea is not just playing catch up with the changing face of the legacies, they are ALL playing catch up with the likes of FR.
And they built it themselves? Do you know anything about that oliver?
Jun 19, 2019, 1:07 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: M&M FTL (*Silver), KLM/AF blue
Posts: 343
Same for easyjet: Can split a reservation with mutliple people online. Try that with Swiss or Lufthansa. You have to call and hope you do not get a clueless agent.
Get the seat you booked and paid for - half of the time I get a different seat on Swiss (and the claim a middle seat in the back is the same as as an aisle in front...)...
And even when you speak to an agent: The ones on Easyjet are actually more knowledgebale and competent then any Swiss/Lufthansa agent....
The LH/LX agents need to be told how screw the system
Like last time when I was rebooked I had to phone to Lufthansa three time to make the seat assignment stick (the seat assignment was fro free, but in order to make it stick for more than 24 hours the agent had to fake a payment of 0 Zero Euro so the system would not autodelete the unpaid seat. Only the third agent actually knew what I was talking about - the two others said I will do and after 24 hours it was gone again....)
But hey there is worse:
The online booking system of our travel agent refuses to book British Airways in the afternoon. The reason for this is that BA requires the ticket to be issued the same day - and after the online booking some "real agent" needs to do something manual in the background to issue the ticket - and they are afraid the have not enough time - so these IT things really cost airlines money. [and no: this is not a bug, has been like this for years and the quite competent phone agents will admit it: No BA reservations possible in the afternoon]
And no it is not only the user: Last time I was at the Lufthansa ticket desk in munich to take the flight an hour earlier (LH ticket, LH plane) - it took the guy (who was the supervisor) 20 minutes of hammering on the keyboard - to make this possible. I guess others would just have given up... the most hilarious part was the when he hit the print button for the credit card receipts and he said it would now 5 minutes until the paper would come out...since the upgraded the system we had good about the good old times when tickets could just be stickered (i.e. the physicalla put a sticker with the new time on it and validated that with a stamp...).
We both remember the time when tickets were written by hand....
More seriously: Yes IT systems have issues, downtime and quality. But if a bank would loos payments like LH looses miles combined with the infamous client service of LH which does not reply at all, after months and for sure not addressing what you asked them: that bank would be out of business within weeks
To sum up: If LH goes out of business it will be most probably because their IT systems cannot
Get the seat you booked and paid for - half of the time I get a different seat on Swiss (and the claim a middle seat in the back is the same as as an aisle in front...)...
And even when you speak to an agent: The ones on Easyjet are actually more knowledgebale and competent then any Swiss/Lufthansa agent....
The LH/LX agents need to be told how screw the system
Like last time when I was rebooked I had to phone to Lufthansa three time to make the seat assignment stick (the seat assignment was fro free, but in order to make it stick for more than 24 hours the agent had to fake a payment of 0 Zero Euro so the system would not autodelete the unpaid seat. Only the third agent actually knew what I was talking about - the two others said I will do and after 24 hours it was gone again....)
But hey there is worse:
The online booking system of our travel agent refuses to book British Airways in the afternoon. The reason for this is that BA requires the ticket to be issued the same day - and after the online booking some "real agent" needs to do something manual in the background to issue the ticket - and they are afraid the have not enough time - so these IT things really cost airlines money. [and no: this is not a bug, has been like this for years and the quite competent phone agents will admit it: No BA reservations possible in the afternoon]
And no it is not only the user: Last time I was at the Lufthansa ticket desk in munich to take the flight an hour earlier (LH ticket, LH plane) - it took the guy (who was the supervisor) 20 minutes of hammering on the keyboard - to make this possible. I guess others would just have given up... the most hilarious part was the when he hit the print button for the credit card receipts and he said it would now 5 minutes until the paper would come out...since the upgraded the system we had good about the good old times when tickets could just be stickered (i.e. the physicalla put a sticker with the new time on it and validated that with a stamp...).
We both remember the time when tickets were written by hand....
More seriously: Yes IT systems have issues, downtime and quality. But if a bank would loos payments like LH looses miles combined with the infamous client service of LH which does not reply at all, after months and for sure not addressing what you asked them: that bank would be out of business within weeks
To sum up: If LH goes out of business it will be most probably because their IT systems cannot
Last edited by Key8; Jun 19, 2019 at 1:09 pm Reason: typos
Jun 19, 2019, 3:10 pm
#26
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,632
It's incredible that Ryanair have built a system that just works isn't it? I'm happy to be corrected, but I have never had an issue where their DCS was down so flights were delayed or canx on FR. (Happened to me on BA and LH). They can so easily board pax just with a sequence number.
No tickets, so that works even better, so simple to rebook and change pax.
Sells the seats, issues the BP without issue, Fast Track there if you pay for it. Easy to book extra seat to get your fake European Business Class, just book a ticket with "EXTRA SEAT" as the pax name, it's a massive fuss with legacies, you can't do it online.
Very little overselling.
Altea is not just playing catch up with the changing face of the legacies, they are ALL playing catch up with the likes of FR.
And they built it themselves? Do you know anything about that oliver?
No tickets, so that works even better, so simple to rebook and change pax.
Sells the seats, issues the BP without issue, Fast Track there if you pay for it. Easy to book extra seat to get your fake European Business Class, just book a ticket with "EXTRA SEAT" as the pax name, it's a massive fuss with legacies, you can't do it online.
Very little overselling.
Altea is not just playing catch up with the changing face of the legacies, they are ALL playing catch up with the likes of FR.
And they built it themselves? Do you know anything about that oliver?
Jun 20, 2019, 6:45 am
#28
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,132
LH systems sold their IT infrastructure operations to IBM in 2014-15. Totally different pair of shoes.
FR has their own GDS which doesn't interact with anyone. They tried to interface with Amaeus, Travelport and others in 2014, but that was shortlived. LH tried something similar for EW, who has Navitaire, which is terrible if you want to interline or rebook onto another airline.
The US3 went the bank way having their own CRS that is customised beyond recovery and run on ancient infrastructure. Just like the bank they employ hundreds of my countrymen to keep the shop running.
LH and other EU airlines set up their own JV CRS which became Amadeus. Various airlines develop various things with Amadeus which all of them then use. BA went the US way and customized the heck out of the Altea frontend. Which flopped big time at launch but seems to be stable now.
FR has their own GDS which doesn't interact with anyone. They tried to interface with Amaeus, Travelport and others in 2014, but that was shortlived. LH tried something similar for EW, who has Navitaire, which is terrible if you want to interline or rebook onto another airline.
The US3 went the bank way having their own CRS that is customised beyond recovery and run on ancient infrastructure. Just like the bank they employ hundreds of my countrymen to keep the shop running.
LH and other EU airlines set up their own JV CRS which became Amadeus. Various airlines develop various things with Amadeus which all of them then use. BA went the US way and customized the heck out of the Altea frontend. Which flopped big time at launch but seems to be stable now.
Jun 20, 2019, 6:46 am
#29
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,626
