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LH successfully sued pax for rebooking ticket 36 times and using the lounge each time

LH successfully sued pax for rebooking ticket 36 times and using the lounge each time

Old Jul 1, 14, 7:26 pm
  #46  
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Originally Posted by hugolover View Post
Woah what is this English law? I'm surprised that in the land of good faith and fair dealing that LH were awarded anything more than the €2-3 costs they actually incurred as part of the lounge contracts. Appeal .
Why should they not be entitled to what they would they charge for lounge visit.
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Old Jul 1, 14, 10:31 pm
  #47  
 
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36 times? Weak. Get on this guy's level.

https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/the-sid...145153681.html
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Old Jul 1, 14, 10:49 pm
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Why should they not be entitled to what they would they charge for lounge visit.
They don't charge for the lounge visit.

You cannot an entry. It comes for free with the ticket purchase or the Gold status.
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Old Jul 1, 14, 11:12 pm
  #49  
 
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Lufthansa have it a lot

http://gizmodo.com/5903687/how-i-got...airport-lounge
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Old Jul 1, 14, 11:16 pm
  #50  
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Originally Posted by weero View Post

So when LH asks for 745 EUR for this walking distance flight because it holds a monopoly then that's free market. But if a customer finds a valid loophole in the airline's offerings then violates some cryptic part of an agreement.
I wonder how the judges came up with the insight that the customer had no intention to fly .. ever. I bet not more than 3 minutes have been spent on that assessment.
Comsidering thst the guy rebooked 35 times on a single ticket and obviously travelled to the airport 35 times, went to security, ate potatoe salad and left again, there might be prima facies evidence that he either went sick because of the salad or never intended to fly. Since he obviously said nothing about illness the only other conclusion is that he never intended to fly.

And once again, procedural law. If LH pleaded that he never intended to fly and derives at such conclusion based on a set of facts (rebooked 35 times, changed 35 times while being at the airport last minute, never intended to got to Zurich) and the defendant fails in doing both, explaing such behaviour and contesting LH's allegation, then the court will rightfully accept this as given facts.
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Old Jul 1, 14, 11:27 pm
  #51  
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Originally Posted by mmff View Post
Taking into account that he paid for the ticket and the rules of the airline allowed unlimited rebookings, I cannot see how anyone could prosecute him for inventory spoilage.

I cannot even understand how a court could rule in favor of LH in this whole case. The passenger was following the rules set by the airline and had a fully flexible (and very expensive) ticket.

If LH does not like its own rules and policy, the solution is quite simple: change them. Until then, rules are rules and this passenger did not break any.
German law is governed by a good faith principle and not only by the good or bad language of terms and conditions.

We frequently see this cultural difference here on FT when we talk about strange language detriment to the customer in some hotels' or airlines' GTCs in Germany we do not care too much such language, since these clauses are most likely void. Anglosaxon, in particular US posters however have an enormous belief in the power of such language.

The same is true here: The customer did not break any written rule, he acted however against the principles of good faith because he exploited the system. This is not against the written rules but against the spirit of mother contract.

Being a German and a US lawyer, I more than frequently come across this cultural gap. In general, the customer/consumer gets into a far better position under the "fairness" argument. Here it turns around the other way: the consumer obviously behaved unfair and it is fair that he needs to pay extra for all the potatoe salad and the access to the lounge.
Statman likes this.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 12:19 am
  #52  
 
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What an idiot! He actually wanted to use the LH C lounge???

Could have bought the same beer and Wiener Wuerstchen at the gas station and saved himself some money in the process.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 12:20 am
  #53  
 
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So, Lufthansa actually values C lounge access at €25. It's on their webpage. http://www.lufthansa.com/us/en/Lounge-News_en

If you are a Frequent Traveller your companions can choose between the Lufthansa Business Lounges in Germany and the USA and the Welcome Lounge at Frankfurt Airport. Costs for one-time access are 25 euros or 35 US dollars per person for the Business Lounges and 50 euros or 70 US dollars for the Welcome Lounge.
Originally Posted by aster View Post
Could I sue LH for not letting me into a lounge with a child and an infant for claiming that the infant is also a guest as part of my *G limit of 1 guest? Seems like I was denied my 55 Euro's worth (or actually 2x that).
IANAL, but I think that argument (at least for the denied guest, maybe not for you for refusing to use the lounge alone) would work in the U.S. Unclear if it would in Germany. But it'd be small claims in the US, so not too daunting if you're in the country and feel like giving it a shot and letting us know how it goes.

Wait, where are these lounge parties listed?

Originally Posted by User Name View Post
Given the sentiment on this thread, is this the wrong time to suggest that each FTer drink one extra pilsner each on their next visit to an LH lounge in protest?
I'm pretty sure the real protest would be to drink one sip, leave it on a table, and repeat until you've kicked the keg.

Originally Posted by mapu View Post
What an idiot! He actually wanted to use the LH C lounge???

Could have bought the same beer and Wiener Wuerstchen at the gas station and saved himself some money in the process.
Aren't the Wiener Würstchen SEN lounge only?

Last edited by Rus925; Jul 2, 14 at 12:26 am
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Old Jul 2, 14, 1:02 am
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post
Comsidering thst the guy rebooked 35 times on a single ticket and obviously travelled to the airport 35 times, went to security, ate potatoe salad and left again, there might be prima facies evidence that he either went sick because of the salad or never intended to fly. Since he obviously said nothing about illness the only other conclusion is that he never intended to fly.

And once again, procedural law. If LH pleaded that he never intended to fly and derives at such conclusion based on a set of facts (rebooked 35 times, changed 35 times while being at the airport last minute, never intended to got to Zurich) and the defendant fails in doing both, explaing such behaviour and contesting LH's allegation, then the court will rightfully accept this as given facts.
So the bar has been set at 35 rebookings/visits. What if someone does this 34 times? 30 times? 20 times? 10 times? 5 times? Etc.

What happens when LH sues someone who rebooks 35 times without using the lounge on basis that rebooking costs LH money?

Nice can of worms,,
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Old Jul 2, 14, 1:36 am
  #55  
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I guess the bar is set at the amount of the charge presented in the invoice the customer gets. Below 2000€ you probably don't get a court decision at all. @:-)
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Old Jul 2, 14, 1:57 am
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Rambuster View Post
IIRC the €55 cost was an estimation by the court.
(" Der Wert der in der Businesslounge angebotenen Leistungen sei auf 55 Euro je Besuch zu schätzen.")

Here more details:

https://www.juris.de/jportal/portal/...enachricht.jsp
55 EUR are ridiculous but the idiot deserves to pay a hefty penalty for playing such a game. Should teach a lesson
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Old Jul 2, 14, 1:59 am
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by aster View Post
55 Euro, interesting.

Could I sue LH for not letting me into a lounge with a child and an infant for claiming that the infant is also a guest as part of my *G limit of 1 guest? Seems like I was denied my 55 Euro's worth (or actually 2x that).
Could not agree more. We were a family of 4, and denied Star Alliance lounge access at CPH with my Sen status at that time. It's completely rude to all those most frequent fliers amongst us, esp since 99% of all flights are ANYway alone - and the lounge guest rule so rarely taken advantage of.

I'd really wonder how much the airlines would lose if they opened family lounge access up. How often do you travel with your entire family anyway and want lounge access?
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Old Jul 2, 14, 3:19 am
  #58  
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Originally Posted by DeterminedToUpgrade View Post
Certainly, but I doubt anybody would argue that every judicial opinion ever issued has been sound. I don't know whether the defendant will appeal this decision, but it seems to me from my limited knowledge that he might have a chance.
This is a really interesting case. IMHO the key point of the decision is whether the passenger really wanted to use the paid air ticket or not.

If the court is convinced that this is some type of "Eingehungsbetrug" (fraudulent pretense) then pleading for guilty and the corresponding court decision is really fine. And it is exactly the type of court decisions which is needed for the purpose of general prevention. ^

Other posters have demanded changes of the T&C of Lufthansa.

If I would be a judge I would make a slightly different ruling. Sure that Lufthansa gets their invoice paid - even if they would have appeared at my court.

But furthermore I would have asked the federal prosecutor if there is a criminal act involved.

The incurred lounge visit costs of 55 Euro are not the full sum of the damage. What is about the flight safety fee ? BTW the passenger was searched 36 times before entering the secure area.

The costs for the rebooking or the inventory spoilage?

[irony]
On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if the culprit will only pay the bill if he would get Miles&More award miles.

Corresponding to the equivalent value of a World Shop Order!
[/irony]
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Old Jul 2, 14, 3:35 am
  #59  
 
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Originally Posted by Jasper2009 View Post
Sure they could, but it would greatly limit the flexibility of the ticket. Full-fare Y/J fares are extremely expensive and there are many legitimate circumstances where pax cancel/change the booking after checking in / arriving at the lounge.
And legitimate cancellations and changes incur nonzero costs on airline each time - food consumed in lounge, searching the passenger, inventory spoilage of the seat...

Lufthansa could reasonably offer non-full refund - refund 90 % or 95 % or 98 % of the ticket fare for full fare flexible ticket cancellations or changes. But if Lufthansa clearly promised 100 % refund/change unlimited number of times then Lufthansa should be held to the language, good faith or bad faith.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 3:51 am
  #60  
 
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Here is the news in english.

I guess he was reading too much FT blogs. Some of them have suggested to book First Class fully refundable ticket in addition to your economy class ticket to get a "free" lounge access on your travel day and then cancel the more expensive one...
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