Nov 18, 2013, 3:46 pm
Last edit by: Kat007
First Class elimination:
FRA-DXB as of 01JUN14
FRA-SEA as of 01JUL14
FRA-NRT as of Summer 2014
FRA-KIX
FRA-MCO
Cancelled destinations:
2014
Nizhny Novgorod/GOJ
Ekaterinburg
Khartoum
Ho Chi Minh
Busan
2013
Kazan
Perm
Libreville
Pointe Noire
2012
Rostov
Kolkata
Guangzhou
Calgary
2011
Hyderabad
FRA-DXB as of 01JUN14
FRA-SEA as of 01JUL14
FRA-NRT as of Summer 2014
FRA-KIX
FRA-MCO
Cancelled destinations:
2014
Nizhny Novgorod/GOJ
Ekaterinburg
Khartoum
Ho Chi Minh
Busan
2013
Kazan
Perm
Libreville
Pointe Noire
2012
Rostov
Kolkata
Guangzhou
Calgary
2011
Hyderabad
Lufthansa New/Cancelled Routes and Changes
May 4, 2020, 7:42 am
#871
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: AMS
Posts: 579
Do you have a bit more insights? I'm really curious. With oil price extra low, very minimal catering, and probably some freight picked up on the way, I don't see how, say, 800 EUR for one-way from Marocco or 2000 EUR from NZ are not covering the costs?
I mean, if they manage to make it work on say AMS-FRA-RBA for 300 EUR round-trip on commercial basis...?
I get it, planes had to fly half-empty, maybe a bit of extra crew spend. But surely 2x increase should have compensated for that? But in reality government had to pay ~200 EUR extra per pax? I'm confused...
I mean, if they manage to make it work on say AMS-FRA-RBA for 300 EUR round-trip on commercial basis...?
I get it, planes had to fly half-empty, maybe a bit of extra crew spend. But surely 2x increase should have compensated for that? But in reality government had to pay ~200 EUR extra per pax? I'm confused...
May 4, 2020, 11:52 am
#872
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: LH HON
Posts: 3,414
Do you have a bit more insights? I'm really curious. With oil price extra low, very minimal catering, and probably some freight picked up on the way, I don't see how, say, 800 EUR for one-way from Marocco or 2000 EUR from NZ are not covering the costs?
I mean, if they manage to make it work on say AMS-FRA-RBA for 300 EUR round-trip on commercial basis...?
I get it, planes had to fly half-empty, maybe a bit of extra crew spend. But surely 2x increase should have compensated for that? But in reality government had to pay ~200 EUR extra per pax? I'm confused...
I mean, if they manage to make it work on say AMS-FRA-RBA for 300 EUR round-trip on commercial basis...?
I get it, planes had to fly half-empty, maybe a bit of extra crew spend. But surely 2x increase should have compensated for that? But in reality government had to pay ~200 EUR extra per pax? I'm confused...
May 4, 2020, 12:38 pm
#873
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: AMS
Posts: 579
Let's compare it to commerical pricing currently available to be more specific, AMS-FRA-TLV and vv is 4 legs, currently priced at 360 EUR in business class. Ok, i get it, some people pay more for it. But still it's 4 legs compared to say FRA-TLV-FRA. Lo and behold, it's still >2x cheaper than lowest economy prices paid by repartiated pax. I'm sure on long-haul those seated in J paid more than 2K on flight from AKL, also catering most probably was somewhat basic. I'm still not convinced that LH can make AMS-TLV fares commerically viable, yet had to charge 1000 EUR including government copay for repatriation flights. Sonething doesn't feel right.
May 4, 2020, 1:12 pm
#874
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: AMS
Posts: 579
Let's even be more specific. Eurowings short-haul CASK excluding fuel in 2018 was EUR 0.066 with target to bring it to 0.052 by 2022 (let's take that last number as a proxy for LH itself - not precise, but as good and actual as we can get).
FRA-TLV-FRA would be ~6K km. That should bring operational costs of such a flight to 312 EUR per seat, excluding fuel. Given how cheap the fuel is atm, say, 400 EUR is the real operational costs. If the loads were even at 50% (which I doubt, most probably more like 60-70% with middle seat free) 800 EUR should be more than enough to cover everything. Airport and government taxes per one-way are definitely not more than 50 EUR. Throw there that flight to TLV would fly empty, so minimal costs (or maybe some auxiliary revenue from cargo).
Similar argument can be made about AKL flights, I'm sure CASK is even lower there, maybe at ~EUR 0.04, which with 36K km should be no more than 1450 EUR ex fuel.
Not sure what extra government subsity of 190 EUR per pax was actually for.
I do expect there was quite some commercial part to the deal, fair enough, LH is a private company. But then when coming to German government for help one should not be upset that government (representing taxpayers) also wants some commercial part or to become a shareholder.
I might be wrong of course, and we won't know the truth, but math tells me that something isn't right in that statement.
FRA-TLV-FRA would be ~6K km. That should bring operational costs of such a flight to 312 EUR per seat, excluding fuel. Given how cheap the fuel is atm, say, 400 EUR is the real operational costs. If the loads were even at 50% (which I doubt, most probably more like 60-70% with middle seat free) 800 EUR should be more than enough to cover everything. Airport and government taxes per one-way are definitely not more than 50 EUR. Throw there that flight to TLV would fly empty, so minimal costs (or maybe some auxiliary revenue from cargo).
Similar argument can be made about AKL flights, I'm sure CASK is even lower there, maybe at ~EUR 0.04, which with 36K km should be no more than 1450 EUR ex fuel.
Not sure what extra government subsity of 190 EUR per pax was actually for.
I do expect there was quite some commercial part to the deal, fair enough, LH is a private company. But then when coming to German government for help one should not be upset that government (representing taxpayers) also wants some commercial part or to become a shareholder.
I might be wrong of course, and we won't know the truth, but math tells me that something isn't right in that statement.
May 4, 2020, 1:42 pm
#875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: LH HON
Posts: 3,414
Well, I do not have inside knowledge on that, but afaik, we don’t know yet how much repatriation flights did cost for pax (some friends of mine got flown out of NZ and haven’t received the bill yet)
also, it’s no secret that LH operations cost are much higher than EW (for many reasons - one being: EW doesn’t do overnights). The NZ flights required multiple crews etc
also on fuel, LH hedged quite some fuel so they don’t pay the current low price
I am also sure that LH made money of these flights (rightfully so) but I doubt it was a fortune.
also, it’s no secret that LH operations cost are much higher than EW (for many reasons - one being: EW doesn’t do overnights). The NZ flights required multiple crews etc
also on fuel, LH hedged quite some fuel so they don’t pay the current low price
I am also sure that LH made money of these flights (rightfully so) but I doubt it was a fortune.
May 4, 2020, 1:48 pm
#876
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA, France
Programs: LH HON*****, AF/KL Gold; HHilton Diamond; Marriott Gold; IHG Platinium; Avis PresClub
Posts: 931
360 EUR is not the average price. That's the lowest. As long as one doesn't know the average price, it is useless to make any speculation if LH ripped off the government? In addition all aircraft had to be flown empty one-way.
May 4, 2020, 2:19 pm
#877
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: AMS
Posts: 579
Well, I do not have inside knowledge on that, but afaik, we don’t know yet how much repatriation flights did cost for pax (some friends of mine got flown out of NZ and haven’t received the bill yet)
also, it’s no secret that LH operations cost are much higher than EW (for many reasons - one being: EW doesn’t do overnights). The NZ flights required multiple crews etc
also on fuel, LH hedged quite some fuel so they don’t pay the current low price
I am also sure that LH made money of these flights (rightfully so) but I doubt it was a fortune.
also, it’s no secret that LH operations cost are much higher than EW (for many reasons - one being: EW doesn’t do overnights). The NZ flights required multiple crews etc
also on fuel, LH hedged quite some fuel so they don’t pay the current low price
I am also sure that LH made money of these flights (rightfully so) but I doubt it was a fortune.
I also don't have inside knowledge of course but i'm surely not impressed by arrogance and double standards of LH's handling of the crisis.
May 4, 2020, 2:28 pm
#878
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: AMS
Posts: 579
that's actually an interesting point. Why would you say that? From what i would guess that would actually make LH way cheaper to operate from CASK point of view. Depreciation, extra maintanance need doesn't disappear if the plane is standing on the ground. Those are surely more expensive than keeping a crew in hotel at outstation overnight, no?
May 5, 2020, 12:16 am
#880
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,132
that's actually an interesting point. Why would you say that? From what i would guess that would actually make LH way cheaper to operate from CASK point of view. Depreciation, extra maintanance need doesn't disappear if the plane is standing on the ground. Those are surely more expensive than keeping a crew in hotel at outstation overnight, no?
May 5, 2020, 3:11 am
#881
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: AMS
Posts: 579
Comparing CASK of regular ops to a adhoc charter is a tad unfair, me thinks... the overflying rights for example to the destination itself are a significant factor. I recall from the LX SIN inaugural that the cost of overflying the various countries from ZRH to SIN for an A343 is 50000$ each way. The AKL missions were flown in two stages via HND & BKK with crew in layover while the aircraft went to AKL to pick up the stranded pax. Condor had a similar base in Thailand for its flights to Australia to pick up Germans. Ground handling in destinations that LH usually doesn't fly to are charged at list price, at one point they took along checkin staff, loaders and technicians to make sure the flight crew didn't time out due to slow turnarounds.
May 5, 2020, 1:32 pm
#883
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: LH HON
Posts: 3,414
that's actually an interesting point. Why would you say that? From what i would guess that would actually make LH way cheaper to operate from CASK point of view. Depreciation, extra maintanance need doesn't disappear if the plane is standing on the ground. Those are surely more expensive than keeping a crew in hotel at outstation overnight, no?
btw, the LH planes still sit on the ground over night - just not at it’s base.
May 8, 2020, 6:52 am
#884
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,132
Doesn't look like they plan to restart any longhaul flights...
A total of 80 aircraft will be reactivated with the "June timetable". This means that a total of 106 destinations can be served in the coming month. From 1 June, 160 aircraft will be in service with the Group's passenger airlines. The previously valid repatriation flight schedule was calculated to be flown with only 80 aircraft.
The Lufthansa Group's airlines are thus responding to the growing interest of customers in air travel, following the gradual easing of restrictions and limitations in the German federal states and entry regulations of other countries in Europe.
"We sense a great desire and longing among people to travel again. Hotels and restaurants are slowly opening, and visits to friends and family are in some cases being allowed again. With all due caution, we are now making it possible for people to catch up and experience what they had to do without for a long time. It goes without saying that the safety and health of our guests and employees are of the highest priority," says Harry Hohmeister, Member of the Executive Board of German Lufthansa AG.
Starting in June, numerous sunny destinations such as Mallorca, Sylt, Rostock and Crete will once again be accessible with the airlines of the Lufthansa Group. Further details of the "June flight schedule" will be published in the course of the coming week.
Customers are asked to take the current entry and quarantine regulations of the respective destinations into account when planning their trip. Throughout the entire trip, restrictions may be imposed due to stricter hygiene and security regulations, for example due to longer waiting times at airport security checkpoints. The catering services on board will also remain restricted until further notice.
The obligation to wear a mouth-nose cover on board introduced by the airlines of the Lufthansa Group on 4 May has been very positively received and accepted by guests. Customers will continue to be asked to wear a mask during the entire journey.
Lufthansa Group airlines to take off again with 160 aircraft from June - "June flight schedule" with 106 destinations will start next week published
- A total of 106 destinations will be flown to in June
- Mallorca, Sylt and Crete back in the program
- "Great desire and longing of people to travel again," says Harry Hohmeister
A total of 80 aircraft will be reactivated with the "June timetable". This means that a total of 106 destinations can be served in the coming month. From 1 June, 160 aircraft will be in service with the Group's passenger airlines. The previously valid repatriation flight schedule was calculated to be flown with only 80 aircraft.
The Lufthansa Group's airlines are thus responding to the growing interest of customers in air travel, following the gradual easing of restrictions and limitations in the German federal states and entry regulations of other countries in Europe.
"We sense a great desire and longing among people to travel again. Hotels and restaurants are slowly opening, and visits to friends and family are in some cases being allowed again. With all due caution, we are now making it possible for people to catch up and experience what they had to do without for a long time. It goes without saying that the safety and health of our guests and employees are of the highest priority," says Harry Hohmeister, Member of the Executive Board of German Lufthansa AG.
Starting in June, numerous sunny destinations such as Mallorca, Sylt, Rostock and Crete will once again be accessible with the airlines of the Lufthansa Group. Further details of the "June flight schedule" will be published in the course of the coming week.
Customers are asked to take the current entry and quarantine regulations of the respective destinations into account when planning their trip. Throughout the entire trip, restrictions may be imposed due to stricter hygiene and security regulations, for example due to longer waiting times at airport security checkpoints. The catering services on board will also remain restricted until further notice.
The obligation to wear a mouth-nose cover on board introduced by the airlines of the Lufthansa Group on 4 May has been very positively received and accepted by guests. Customers will continue to be asked to wear a mask during the entire journey.
May 8, 2020, 7:05 am
#885
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BOM-SIN-EWR
Programs: UA*G (1K again), Sixt Plat, *was*: SQ QPP01 & SK EBS/EBG, LH SEN, AA EXP, 9wPlat
Posts: 8,606