Lufthansa First Award seats availability [for partner FFPs outside of M&M]
#17
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 391
I don't have a problem if M&M largely or totally blocks F redemptions from other *A programs, as a countermeasure to all the US DM and UA abusers, and because so many others are doing it also (SQ, NH and the likes).
But I do have a problem with the fact that M&M has become so much more stingy on releasing F awards for their own members. This can't all be explained by the reduction in F seats, but rather seems a deliberate scheme.
As a SEN or HON, you have some more leverage, but even for them the situation for F redemptions has become dire (BTW I think it's ridiculous that M&M doesn't release e.g. A380 seats for its FTL and base members).
On some routes like FRA-EZE, availability seems to have almost completely dried up.
Pretty soon, they'll have the rename the programme to scam&more.
But I do have a problem with the fact that M&M has become so much more stingy on releasing F awards for their own members. This can't all be explained by the reduction in F seats, but rather seems a deliberate scheme.
As a SEN or HON, you have some more leverage, but even for them the situation for F redemptions has become dire (BTW I think it's ridiculous that M&M doesn't release e.g. A380 seats for its FTL and base members).
On some routes like FRA-EZE, availability seems to have almost completely dried up.
Pretty soon, they'll have the rename the programme to scam&more.
See post 14 here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...2-changes.html
LH is staying within *A rules and offering a certain number of F seats to *A partner FFPs, just not at 330 days out as it used to be and not as many as it used to be when you had 16 seats in the UD. Also on certain routes they are aware that mileage millionaires are lurking in the shadows waiting to redeem at short notice (ORD and NYC are notorious for UA plats / 1Ks changing their award tickets for free to grab O seats that are released a day before departure to enable business travellers to upgrade for miles at the airport).
LH is staying within *A rules and offering a certain number of F seats to *A partner FFPs, just not at 330 days out as it used to be and not as many as it used to be when you had 16 seats in the UD. Also on certain routes they are aware that mileage millionaires are lurking in the shadows waiting to redeem at short notice (ORD and NYC are notorious for UA plats / 1Ks changing their award tickets for free to grab O seats that are released a day before departure to enable business travellers to upgrade for miles at the airport).
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,341
If LH would rather a seat go empty and generate €0 revenue rather than take my dirty, abusive US DM redemption that gives them more than €0, then fine. But then don't whine about not getting enough money when their seats are empty.
Airlines have high fixed costs and their goods (seats on planes) are perishable. If the baker would rather throw their day-old bread into the garbage rather then sell it to a willing buyer, that's their problem, but maybe they should think about their bread and the price they sell it for if they keep tossing bread away every day. And if LH isn't selling enough of their F seats, such that providing them to DM Maximizers™ is actually a viable option, that means they need to adjust their F pricing such that it sells better (and their supply, although I think they're at work on that by removing F on some routes). That would actually be following the plot.
I don't expect that award inventory is going to be any better or reliable than day-old bread, but there's being sensible about it and cutting one's nose off to spite a face. LH policies right now seem closer to the latter.
Last edited by eponymous_coward; May 2, 2012 at 11:01 am
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Point Place, Wisconsin
Programs: LH HON, BA Gold, EK Gold
Posts: 14,505
#21
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,001
LH makes 70% of their longhaul revenue by selling C seats. F is supposed to be an experience, and they don't intend to sell every seat in F, its always been like that. The peanuts they get out of the *A pot for giving a partner FFP a F award seat probably doesn't cover the cost of catering and the kit.
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,341
LH makes 70% of their longhaul revenue by selling C seats. F is supposed to be an experience, and they don't intend to sell every seat in F, its always been like that. The peanuts they get out of the *A pot for giving a partner FFP a F award seat probably doesn't cover the cost of catering and the kit.
I also tend to think it's not true that it's peanuts for a *A partner to pay someone else for F seats, because multiple reports indicate that US has de facto instituted *net blocking on LH F, even at T-14 and dramatically increased mileage prices (something like 50% over the past year).
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 212
If that's true, then if anything, LH should be blocking longhaul C from *A award redemption, not just longhaul F. I find it hard to believe that the catering expenses from F are more than a modest upcharge from C and there's lots of reports of people finding 4 C on LH flight awards- the revenue lost from 4 C seats could easily beat the revenue lost from 1 F seat (especially if it's much more likely you'd sell C than F- even one of those C seats being sold, three empty should pay off better than giving 4 away).
Or they just think that they can fill enough of the seats (only 8) through cash buyers that they don't need to give any out.
sillypainter: you mention making the change to LH F at 1 or 2 days notice. Are you booking a routing that has both a UA and LH flight, booking the UA seat, and then getting the discounted $75 change fee? Also, I thought that the tickets were unmodifiable after departure, so how can you change the return?
#24
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: AVL
Programs: AA, AS, SQ, Hilton Diamond, PC Platinum, National Exec
Posts: 726
Buy a song from iTunes through M&M and viola!
#27
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 251
I think that the theory is that LH wants to sell F for real cash, and that they can do this by providing a superior product. Part of the superior product that they think they are providing is exclusivity. For the customer that they are targeting, I guess they believe that losing some revenue from mile redeemers will increase exclusivity for paying customers, and thus increase paying customers.
Or they just think that they can fill enough of the seats (only 8) through cash buyers that they don't need to give any out.
sillypainter: you mention making the change to LH F at 1 or 2 days notice. Are you booking a routing that has both a UA and LH flight, booking the UA seat, and then getting the discounted $75 change fee? Also, I thought that the tickets were unmodifiable after departure, so how can you change the return?
Or they just think that they can fill enough of the seats (only 8) through cash buyers that they don't need to give any out.
sillypainter: you mention making the change to LH F at 1 or 2 days notice. Are you booking a routing that has both a UA and LH flight, booking the UA seat, and then getting the discounted $75 change fee? Also, I thought that the tickets were unmodifiable after departure, so how can you change the return?
The 75 dollar change applies to any change that occurs on your itinerary e.g. Class change or airline change in the 21 day window, outside of that window you can do unlimited changes (not sure about class change, but I think same applies for that) as long as the departure and return points are the same.
I usually book a carrier and class that I like, so like this I am at least guaranteed "something" and for $75 I change around, sometimes even 2 times, one for the dep. And one for the return, its still worth the $75 to fly LH F, even the old product, I mostly like for the peace of mind, you can sleep, eat, stand up, nobody tells you anything, seat belt signs may be ON, they don't bother you.....
#28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,187
[I]... its still worth the $75 to fly LH F, even the old product, I mostly like for the peace of mind, you can sleep, eat, stand up, nobody tells you anything, seat belt signs may be ON, they don't bother you.....
No kidding - not like the "flight safety officers" aboard US carriers these days!
No kidding - not like the "flight safety officers" aboard US carriers these days!
#30
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,001
The 75 dollar change applies to any change that occurs on your itinerary e.g. Class change or airline change in the 21 day window, outside of that window you can do unlimited changes (not sure about class change, but I think same applies for that) as long as the departure and return points are the same.