Rumour [confirmed]: Major changes to Miles & More
Mar 20, 2012, 4:49 am
#31
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,069
Where are all the posters normally defending LH for having a lousy C seat etc , as they need to secure bottom line and run a profitable airline 
To me it makes a lot of sense that Y does not qualify for HON , why should the cheapos be rewarded
To me it makes a lot of sense that Y does not qualify for HON , why should the cheapos be rewarded
Mar 20, 2012, 4:55 am
#32
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,132
They have certainly studied the effects of the recent FFP changes:
- the complete mix up in 2004
- the tightening of AF/KL in 2009
- the remix of BAEC in 2010-11
As weird as it may sound, changing/redefining the loyalty programmes has done nothing to BA/AF/LH's performance in the past 8 years, the threat to Fort BA/AF/LH is more from
- our bling friends in the middle east who are luring the fliers to book a good service for a low price and no loyalty programme (to speak of)
- the LCCs who show that even business travellers fly Easyjet & co if the timing and price is right
The local captive market will erode over time to the two above factors, the connecting European longhaul business traffic will book by price and convenience and maybe factor in an *A/ST/OW alliance but certainly by a far distant third.
- the complete mix up in 2004
- the tightening of AF/KL in 2009
- the remix of BAEC in 2010-11
As weird as it may sound, changing/redefining the loyalty programmes has done nothing to BA/AF/LH's performance in the past 8 years, the threat to Fort BA/AF/LH is more from
- our bling friends in the middle east who are luring the fliers to book a good service for a low price and no loyalty programme (to speak of)
- the LCCs who show that even business travellers fly Easyjet & co if the timing and price is right
The local captive market will erode over time to the two above factors, the connecting European longhaul business traffic will book by price and convenience and maybe factor in an *A/ST/OW alliance but certainly by a far distant third.
Mar 20, 2012, 5:04 am
#33
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,832
They have certainly studied the effects of the recent FFP changes:
- the complete mix up in 2004
- the tightening of AF/KL in 2009
- the remix of BAEC in 2010-11
As weird as it may sound, changing/redefining the loyalty programmes has done nothing to BA/AF/LH's performance in the past 8 years, the threat to Fort BA/AF/LH is more from
- our bling friends in the middle east who are luring the fliers to book a good service for a low price and no loyalty programme (to speak of)
- the LCCs who show that even business travellers fly Easyjet & co if the timing and price is right
The local captive market will erode over time to the two above factors, the connecting European longhaul business traffic will book by price and convenience and maybe factor in an *A/ST/OW alliance but certainly by a far distant third.
- the complete mix up in 2004
- the tightening of AF/KL in 2009
- the remix of BAEC in 2010-11
As weird as it may sound, changing/redefining the loyalty programmes has done nothing to BA/AF/LH's performance in the past 8 years, the threat to Fort BA/AF/LH is more from
- our bling friends in the middle east who are luring the fliers to book a good service for a low price and no loyalty programme (to speak of)
- the LCCs who show that even business travellers fly Easyjet & co if the timing and price is right
The local captive market will erode over time to the two above factors, the connecting European longhaul business traffic will book by price and convenience and maybe factor in an *A/ST/OW alliance but certainly by a far distant third.
Mar 20, 2012, 5:20 am
#34
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,551
What is the incentive to renew SEN instead of defecting to an easier to obtain *G level?
Reducing the miles for Z and P will affect me quite badly. But already I couldn't see the point of being SEN. So why will you guys keep SEN and not defect elsewhere?
Reducing the miles for Z and P will affect me quite badly. But already I couldn't see the point of being SEN. So why will you guys keep SEN and not defect elsewhere?
Mar 20, 2012, 5:22 am
#35
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: EDI, CGN, NYC
Programs: LH-SEN, DL-Platinum
Posts: 973
I can't understand why folks flying in Y shouldn't be eligible for HON if they fly enough. A customer who flies enough in Y to make HON (especially with LH's long haul Y product) is an *operational definition* of loyal. What else could explain such behavior?
The lower miles earning potential of lower-cost C fares and the inability to upgrade... kind of a slap in the face to folks you would think should be their bread-and-butter.
I'm not an LH apologist, but I have enjoyed my SENhood. That said, the only thing that keeps me coming back is the Welcome Lounge in Frankfurt. When they limit access to that, I'm done with them.
A shame really.
The lower miles earning potential of lower-cost C fares and the inability to upgrade... kind of a slap in the face to folks you would think should be their bread-and-butter.
I'm not an LH apologist, but I have enjoyed my SENhood. That said, the only thing that keeps me coming back is the Welcome Lounge in Frankfurt. When they limit access to that, I'm done with them.
A shame really.
Mar 20, 2012, 5:44 am
#36
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: NUE,MUC,INN,FDH
Programs: QF LTG, LH (SEN*** till 02/26), AF, AA, AB-G†
Posts: 2,075
Biggest Implication for me:
- Try to requalify before 1. September
- No need for an LX Business Saver then. Booking an extra seat will do the trick.
- Rethink FFP Strategy on the short run:
- Asian Flights in October will not go to LH.
FFP Strategy on the long run:
- Secure Lifetime QF-Status
- Evaluate if change to a cheap *G is possible.
The 200% Milage was the main reason that I did not leave M&M after August 2004. As this is now over.
Other airlines have nice products as well.
- Try to requalify before 1. September
- No need for an LX Business Saver then. Booking an extra seat will do the trick.
- Rethink FFP Strategy on the short run:
- Asian Flights in October will not go to LH.
FFP Strategy on the long run:
- Secure Lifetime QF-Status
- Evaluate if change to a cheap *G is possible.
The 200% Milage was the main reason that I did not leave M&M after August 2004. As this is now over.
Other airlines have nice products as well.
Mar 20, 2012, 5:54 am
#37
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Barcelona, Catalunya
Posts: 2,108
The 10.000 miles round-trips were the only way to maintain SEN with my travel pattern.
Isn't it ironic that all this is announced the day that AB joins Oneworld?
Opens up new possibilities, doesn't it?
Mar 20, 2012, 6:14 am
#39
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: .at
Posts: 33
Just called the Austrian FTL hotline to ask about my Z miles for September (LH/OS/LX) - they actually knew what I was asking about (surprise #1), and told me that tickets issued before April 30 would earn the old amount of miles (surprise #2). Still crossing my fingers that they did not lie.
Mar 20, 2012, 6:15 am
#40
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,551
Since the demise of DC was known I have been toiling with myself where I will dedicate my FFP efforts. I really have to say, LH management are absolutely clueless when it comes to inspiring customer loyalty. For example why on earth would I go the extra mile and spend more cash just to book a D class intra-European fare to be able to renew my SEN status. Is that what they are thinking? Are we all muppets?
Appeal to your premium customers yes, but premium customers have cash because the majority worked hard and appreciate the value of money. I for one won't be considered an easy pawn by LH management thinking they can chuck anything at me and out falls more cash just to earn a few more miles. There are a good few high-spending corporates left but that's just where there are direct routes, competing in the UK and other markets means they're offering a cheaper product anyway.
Your customers are NOT a charity. But if LH want to play it this way I will treat them like a charity, crediting to A3 and booking the cheapest fares. After all the message time and time again from the PR machine is spend LOADS of cash or spend the absolute minimum because LH is a budget airline.
This is a sure way to clean out a good few SENs and HONs.
In truth I didn't want it to end up this way. Some of the Z offers were quite good on intercontinental flights and the LX J-Up was a good way to earn some miles and enjoy a better product. So it's likely goodbye M&M and welcome to cheaper ways to attain *G.
Maybe I will end up going back to Flying Blue.
Appeal to your premium customers yes, but premium customers have cash because the majority worked hard and appreciate the value of money. I for one won't be considered an easy pawn by LH management thinking they can chuck anything at me and out falls more cash just to earn a few more miles. There are a good few high-spending corporates left but that's just where there are direct routes, competing in the UK and other markets means they're offering a cheaper product anyway.
Your customers are NOT a charity. But if LH want to play it this way I will treat them like a charity, crediting to A3 and booking the cheapest fares. After all the message time and time again from the PR machine is spend LOADS of cash or spend the absolute minimum because LH is a budget airline.
This is a sure way to clean out a good few SENs and HONs.
In truth I didn't want it to end up this way. Some of the Z offers were quite good on intercontinental flights and the LX J-Up was a good way to earn some miles and enjoy a better product. So it's likely goodbye M&M and welcome to cheaper ways to attain *G.
Maybe I will end up going back to Flying Blue.
Mar 20, 2012, 6:29 am
#41
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CDG
Programs: SK Gold, AF Gold, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 3,712
I am enraged by these latest developments. As someone who's not a corporate traveller, and consequently has to pay all his bills by himself, I feel like I've been stripped of any chance to make myself a SEN in the next 4-5 years.
The drop in Swiss' P (i.e. business saver) is the most hurtful one. I now literally can't see why I would cash out 500€ for BEG - ZRH - GVA in P if I can get the same number of miles with a 200€ ticket. The latter gets me the same NEK seat anyway, takes away the lounge access which I can't make much use of anyway due to short connecting times, and strips me of one fancy snack, saving me 300€ in the process.
Another glorious shot in the foot by M&M.
The drop in Swiss' P (i.e. business saver) is the most hurtful one. I now literally can't see why I would cash out 500€ for BEG - ZRH - GVA in P if I can get the same number of miles with a 200€ ticket. The latter gets me the same NEK seat anyway, takes away the lounge access which I can't make much use of anyway due to short connecting times, and strips me of one fancy snack, saving me 300€ in the process.
Another glorious shot in the foot by M&M.
Mar 20, 2012, 6:44 am
#42
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 504
I think this change will largely help LH to clear out the HON numbers that have gone far beyond what LH management ever thought about. I know a couple of HONs flying M and B on shorthaul and Z fares on longhaul, who will definitly not be able to maintain their status with that booking pattern. And they have no chance to pay up as this is based on corporate travel policy.
For Y-flying SENs this is actually rather positive, but then my adress is already outside DE anyways. So personally it does not really affect me.
But then when I look at the overall development LH has been taken in the past 2-3 years, I think there is a good reason to doubt LH management is taking the long-term view.
- Why would you remove the D-class booking guarantee? Yes sure, a few HONs might book C or J instead. But I cannot believe that the extra revenue based on that group will justify the risk loosing a larger number of customers that will now just go ahead and book EK & co.
- Why would you aim your new marketing and product offering at the leisure traveller (that does not yield any kind of profit) and devalue your program and on-board offering for the corporate traveller, who is effectively the cash cow of your whole passenger operations?
- Why does LH show such strange behaviours in its revenue management lately? Opening availability for I and O class but not for Z or A class. Also a move that will help drive a away the most loyal and yielding group of passengers.
Don't get me wrong. I see their need to take some cost and revenue measures, when taking a business perspective. Simply because LCCs, fuel cost and middle east carries are a massive mid term threat to LHs existence.
Nevertheless, I am not convinced that the potentially positive financial impacts of the recent changes will outweigh the massive risk of LH losing its credibility, prestige and customer loyalty. Factors that were build over decades.
But time will tell
For Y-flying SENs this is actually rather positive, but then my adress is already outside DE anyways. So personally it does not really affect me.
But then when I look at the overall development LH has been taken in the past 2-3 years, I think there is a good reason to doubt LH management is taking the long-term view.
- Why would you remove the D-class booking guarantee? Yes sure, a few HONs might book C or J instead. But I cannot believe that the extra revenue based on that group will justify the risk loosing a larger number of customers that will now just go ahead and book EK & co.
- Why would you aim your new marketing and product offering at the leisure traveller (that does not yield any kind of profit) and devalue your program and on-board offering for the corporate traveller, who is effectively the cash cow of your whole passenger operations?
- Why does LH show such strange behaviours in its revenue management lately? Opening availability for I and O class but not for Z or A class. Also a move that will help drive a away the most loyal and yielding group of passengers.
Don't get me wrong. I see their need to take some cost and revenue measures, when taking a business perspective. Simply because LCCs, fuel cost and middle east carries are a massive mid term threat to LHs existence.
Nevertheless, I am not convinced that the potentially positive financial impacts of the recent changes will outweigh the massive risk of LH losing its credibility, prestige and customer loyalty. Factors that were build over decades.
But time will tell
Mar 20, 2012, 7:10 am
#43
Senior Moderator, Moderator: Community Buzz and Ambassador: Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 150km from MAN
Programs: LH SEN** HH Diamond
Posts: 29,510
more details from brummi@VFT
Code:
Upgrade awards from Business Class no longer available in booking classes Z and P: • Upgrade awards from Business booking class Z to First Class will no longer be available on Lufthansa-operated flights effective from 1 September 2012. The same applies to the new Business booking class P on Lufthansa flights with immediate effect. • On SWISS-operated flights, upgrade awards to First Class from Business booking classes Z and P will continue to be available. There will be an additional surcharge of 20,000 miles (currently: 15,000 miles) for these upgrades with effect from 1 September 2012.
I guess I might buy Y tickets and upgrade with eVouchers to C so they are not completely wasted. Assuming we can still upgrade mid-range Y fares with eVouchers that will mean less money going to LH/LX.
Mar 20, 2012, 7:20 am
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Europe & Indonesia
Programs: BAEC Gold, LH SEN, EK ex-Gold, IHG Plat
Posts: 11,571
You'll still be able to use them on LX for Z --> O.
Mar 20, 2012, 7:30 am
#45
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Staffordshire UK
Programs: Mucci, BA Silver, HON, EK Gold
Posts: 242
Irony - I read this forty minutes after a mail saying our new corporate airline partners will be OW
Well, it's been fun - now just need to spend the miles whilst still HON......
Well, it's been fun - now just need to spend the miles whilst still HON......