Tyrolean

Maybe if they turn to the Ryanair concept. Offering a LCC service, but having legacy-carrier costs may not be a solution.

BTW I just booked some crossover Tickets in E (99 Euro) for my next trips in Jan. If I cannot fly, I use the train. That is my flexibility. Yes we are a party of 3 Pax!

Here goes my revenue!

SleepOverGreenland

I will give it a try (or some tries) too. But I find it stupid to argue that this new (BIZ) seat is LHs response to the trend moving more from C to Y. I mean, in this case please blame the Y travellers and make their seat worse (if this is even possible). But why penalize the still C travellers for something other people did who don't travel in C anymore.

SleepOverGreenland

Well ,LHPII argued with a trend to move from C to Y cabin. So you (like me) were not part of the trend, but LH wants trendy customers.

LHPII

trust me i am more then aware of that trend, but same seat does't mean sam recline at the same time as it is an adjustable option. So early reports from OS can just give you an idea of seat, and that's it.

Of course you can't see it.........product is not out yet!

OS, SN and LX will get on new deliveries.

......i didn't say anything what you are putting in my mouth....

Because you always had very nice crew on your flights, but again LH crews are exeptionall after all aren they?!

if only all LH customers were thinking the sam way, there would not be any sorts of NEK's and we would still be flying LH First class on short haul.

All those who do not see any value proposition in NEK without even trying the new product I would like to remind them of days when they travelled in 6 abreast in C (early nineties) and 5 abreast (up to 2005) at much higher fares and they still had seen a good value in it.

seat 1a

You can argue this any way you like , but for a C flying customer this will not be a value proposition.

Also , thank you for reminding us of the past , where LH still find themselfs in many cases . Many threads about long haul C and F comes to mind.

Tyrolean

True, but I already said it many times: The onboard crews are the last asset of LH. The ground-handling is often a disgrace. The call-centre can be between disgrace and excellent. The food is nothing to write home about. The seat (in C) is below industry standard on Longhaul flights.

The current Kont C-Seat was an improvement to the leather seats before. But now they enhance it back.

The 2-3 Configuration was not that bad if you sat on the A/C seats. BA had them a little bit longer. The seats were a lot more comfortable than the current ones. Yes the 3-3 configuration was a disgrace.
Wait? Higher fares? I just looked into my accounting. Domestic flights to Berlin were about 600 DM! Now they are more than 600 Euro? I find that quite a dramatic increase!
C-Fares did never decrease!
The empty middle seat was introduced in 2005? Really? I thought it was a bit earlier! Yes I still remember the 727 and the gate buffet (when I was proud member of LH-Junior-Club).

What I find quite hard to understand: Fewer people buy my product. So I make it less attractive. Does this bring back anyone or chase away the last customers?

Rambuster

I was a member of the Junior Club too and I remeber First Class on shorthaul flights (late 70's and early 80's!).

I wonder why LH never followed the LX approach (Business Savers) of making C more affordable for passengers who wish to travel in more comfort without the added ticket flexibility ?
BA introduced this years ago too and it seems to be a success ?

The answer seems to be that they are milking their full fare C passengers to death. Keep fares sky high and erode the product step by step.
...However, at one point the entire model collapses...Looks like we have hit this impass?

sunseeker

i recall flying HAM-LHR in F about 25 years ago; they even had a dedicated FC lounge in london then.
but, those were the days when LX would offer you a cigar in F (before takeoff !!)...

long gone....

Rambuster

Thank God those days are over!

sunseeker

though i still like a good cigar from time to time, i agree completely.

it was just supposed to be an example of how times are changing...

LHPII

you are a bit contradicting yourself. In a first part you think the current leather seat is an improvment over the prevoius leather seats. (it could only be 5 abreast configuration) and in second part you say they were more comfortable then the current seats........so pls. make up your mind. I think the current ones (not NEK) are more comfortable then pre 2006. 5 abreast seats.
And LH had introduced current seats in 2006, although 4 abreast seat concept was introduced a bit earlier in 2005 on old seats that were not longer converted to 5 abreast, but rather kept with middle seat blocked.
...... LH had 5 abreast seating before BA did.

NEK is a crucial part of climb 2011 project that is masterminded by Christoph Franz and trust me if something was a great success at LX will get copy/paste at LH now. Christoph Franz is not a new CEO of LH for no reason.

flysurfer

Yes, Mr. Franz does actually have a long standing reputation of exactly knowing how to make his customers happy. He demonstrated that ability at Deutsche Bahn AG, where he introduced a very complex, airline like pricing system that cost him the goodwill of the customer base (and politicians, DB is a state-owned entity) and eventually led to his demission from the Executive Board. Yep, he got fired. I'm glad to hear that Mr. Franz is fully prepared to repeat former mistakes, no matter what.

Btw, I fondly remember flying paid First Class within Germany and Europe. Actually, these were the few tickets I happily paid for myself with my own dime while still being a university student, as domestic F used to be a really good and enjoyable product. Later, in the 90s, my clients paid Y (in those days, there was no other booking class available for weekday same-day returns) and I happily paid up to C, as the price difference was marginal, typically like 50 DM(!) to upgrade a roundtrip ticket from Y to C, the latter crediting 2500 miles per domestic segment. That used to be the perfect "Business Saver" model. Oh, and yes, full-fare C used to be less than 600 DM(!) for a domestic roundtrip ticket.

Today, in order to fly MUC-TXL-MUC, the fare difference between the cheapest fully flexible Economy fare (B) and the cheapest Business fare (C) is a whopping 141 EUR, that's about 282 DM(!). Even the difference between Y and C is 100 EUR or 200 DM. To get what? A few more miles and a guaranteed free middle seat? You know what: It's actually quite easy and cheap to buy a second seat (aka free middle seat) in Economy. You only have to pay the base fare, no taxes, fees or YQ. And you even get additional award miles for that second seat. Since most Economy fare buckets and fares can be combined for roundtrips, you'll almost always end up with a considerably lower price than booking C. And as a SEN, you can even sit in exit row with a free middle seat, enjoying more space than any seat in Business Class can offer.

thomasalexandre

Beside of one OS plane, no airline has these seats yet, confirming what I said: you are speaking about and killing it without even having sat on it.

oliver2002

Well in the good old days things were different. I remember being bumped from Y to C on a CDG-MUC hop in 1992 and getting a full dinner on a brand new A320 and upon landing my parents and I compared notes between C & Y and their meal was the same opulent offering except it was served in plastic, not porcelain.

In the meantime a few things have changed. Looking at my own employer, who I joined about 11 years ago:

- we do 1.5x the volume and sales with about 25% less workforce
- the HQ I sit in was designed for 4000 in 1990 and we just have about 600 here now with the rest rented out
- 11 years ago the travel policy was F on longhaul for 12+h segments (or for everyone upto 4 levels below the board), C on anything above 2h (or if you are a manager or any sort), now its C for 6+h, F only for board members.
- salaries for managers have stagnated so much that the tariff unionised workforce is overtaking lower level management
- the chemical industry has given up entire market segments to asian competition and constantly needs to be on their toes
- etc etc

While I don't want to open a collection for a poor manager (still able to feed my family and fly C/F on my own dime (thank you US and BD)) the above was to highlight the situation in one of the surviving (or rather thriving) industrial segments in Germany. I'm sure the rest of the industry has adjusted equally. No wonder LH is adjusting the product and offering on a segment that is making no money for them?

hamallu

NEK Update.

Seats that I've seen are a bit of a let down in terms of the colour scheme. It's going to be all grey as opposed to the current one with blue highlights or Austrian's signature red. I was hoping to see either the LH yellow or blue accenting the seats.

The first NEK fitted plane. D-ABIM is scheduled to be rolled out tomorrow and start flying on the 8th. It's first day rotations are as follows.

• LH140/5 FRA-NUE-FRA
• LH1322/3 FRA-TUN-FRA
• LH1242/3 FRA-VIE-FRA