Some Select Observation
 

All,


This weekend I flew KLM C intra-Europe for the first time on my own dime (I don't travel upfront for business) and believe I encountered every horror scenario possible with Select. All in all I am not too bothered by it but at the same time it pisses me off.

Outbound:

Started very good with no difficulties changing my ticket in an overcrowded lounge 41. Got onboard the flight and took my seat, 1F, no-one next to me and only a few others in the cabin, M was almost full (4 rows of Select).

There onwards - as I am sitting in my seat I see the CSD collecting disposable bags (I had two crew behind me (one in uniform, the other without) - weird I think with a sneeky idea of what is going on, I use the lavatory and when I get back hear the sound of bottles clinking. I turn around to see the two deadheaders covering the bags up under an issue of Holland Herald, so I turn around and politely asks whether they got Delft Houses or bottles of wine. The stewardess got clearly embarrased and I felt I won a hollow victory.


Return:

Check in about an hour and a half before my flight (already OLCI'd) the day before. I changed my seat from 2C to 3F. At the airport, I am given the same seat as I collect my boarding pass. I board the flight only to be told at the gate that I have been allocated a new seat - 1E. As the gate agent writes down my new seat number she tells me that at least I will be receiving the catering. M was full, and so was C.

--
As I sit down into my seat I realise the flight is overbooked, there is even pax jumpseating but as the passenger in 2E gets into the cockpit I see the original jumpseater talk to the CC for the duration of the flight.
--
Anyhow, I turn around to see some random guy occupying my seat and realise as they distribute dinner that most passengers on that row (bar one, receives M-meals). This makes me believe they put all paying C passengers at the front to ease the distribution of service (although they started serving from the back) but what actually upsets me is that I was bumped out of my seat into a middle seat for someone who I firmly believed was op-uped.

Now, this rant may show that I care a bit too much and at the end of the day I am happy I experienced this. It made me value my take-off fares - I believe KLM when flying cheap econ fares provides some of the best value in the air; reliable, always decent service and value for money. I will never pay for my own C-ticket again - that KLM has made me sure of. I already knew that C on KLM is nothing special but I am annoyed that they really make the product so crap but offering lesser service to paying customers and caring more for those who are in those seats not paying.

What can you say as a reply to this.... It almost feels like this is the standard to be expected from KLM, also looking at other posts in this forum :mad:

Honestly since they introduced ES with 3-3 seating I did wonder who in their right mind would actually pay for that (no offence to the OP - I fully understand you want to enjoy flying up front!). That is considering the competition with 2-3 (or even 2-2) seating and better service. I suppose part of it is KLMs stranglehold on Dutch businesses.

The only thing I can hope is that KLM will suffer and get less pax on high-paying fares, impacting the yield, and that eventually things will improve. At least I am not bothering anymore with them, having just booked an award flight in AF F, and down to 61 miles :) Actually I did consider a KLM WBC return flight to the USA but wasn't able to find any availability, which is also due to the fact that the number of KLM-operated USA/Canada destinations is a bit low.

Wishing the OP better a experience next time (either on KLM or any other airline)!

BTW: Depending on the route KLM ES can be much more expensive than other airlines (specifically AMS-LHR compared with BA I fares).

Anybody remember the good old days (not even that long ago), when KL advertised their 2+3 intra-European C class seating?

http://server6.theimagehosting.com/i..._1990s_001.jpg

Johan

On a recent flight from BCN I was opupped and was quite surprised at the quality of food in ES plus as there was only 3 rows it's much easier to get a few extra drinks in.

But the 3-3 seating makes it very awkward to eat comfortably without invading the space of the person next to you. Eating a sandwich is easy when that cramped but a proper meal is a pain.

It seems so odd how they removed the 2-3 seating from the 739's which had them as recently as last year. Europe select is expensive, maybe for a small premium people would pay for sitting up front and slightly better food but the price difference is crazy.

I've flown OK from LHR to PRG and a business class (D) ticket was about £200 return. Their business product is much better, no occupied middle seats, pre-takeoff drinks, etc. It's one of the few decent euro business class services I've seen and the price of the cheapest fare put KLM to shame.

Thanks,

Well I knew what I was in for, I bought C because I decided to go to EDI last minute and had done 29 segments and wanted lounge access. Buying C in Europe is IMO waste of money - I understand people are willing to pay for lounge access, which is why this year I put most of my flying with KLM in order to get Gold. As said, I think KLM take-off fares represents excellent value for money (albeit not if starting point is AMS).

I wrote KLM an e-mail and I expect the reply will be that it is not C but a better M. Fair enough. But what annoys me (and many others here) is the preferential treatment staff is given. I do not care if staff is upfront, I get to buy all the products my company makes without VAT and a at a discount. Each firm comes with different perks. But if the staff receives a 'goody-bag' full of alcohol, why can't I? I wouldn't mind the gin. I do not like being bumped out of my seat and it makes eating hard, why could not Mr Dry Sandwitch get my seat?

Ah well, it has been 24 hours so the annoyance should have worn off by now.

I'll post KLM's reply here if and when I receive it.

KLM is so blatant on rubbing customers up with this type of treatment which always apears to be an area that management surely know off but it could be the straw that breaks the camels back if they clamp donw on it

Just to get a clear view: we're talking about a 1-hour or so flight AMS-EDI vv right?

I am sure your customers would like to have VAT-free, discounted products at your store too, as you describe you also receive.
The only difference is that probably you are able to do it more discreetly and that your customers probably don't go to forums like this to complain about such perks.

You are right that this behaviour of KL staff is indiscreet at the very least, but I really wonder why some people always begrudge other people their pleasures in life.
So what if someone gets something I don't get, unless I've paid for it, it is none of my business.
If the service suffers as a result, I will complain.

Let us know KL's response please.

You are wondering why I am annoyed that they get my seat? Because it is my seat, I paid for it and it does not matter if the trip is an hour (although less important) or ten hours. I know I can get bumped out at any time - I can live with that but that it is most likely an op-up who got my seat, that annoys me.

I could not care less if staff rides up front and I am in the back. It is their perk and airline staff is not underpaid nor am I. Different perks comes with different companies.

I am pissed off because of
a) the blatant favouritism played by the staff (and as you say, management probably knows)
b) that someone who was not in my seat one hour prior magically appears there and is served an M-meal.

(I am unsure of your last remark and if I came out completely wrong, then my apologies)

hence the reason staff perks are more important than customers revenue and why I dont spend a .... load of money with them anymore and go out of my way to make other people who also can spend .... loads of money with KLM spend it with alternative airlines that appreciate their customers.

Having been bumped from C class to the front row of .... class and then watching the staff party it up from AMS to BKK really helped me switch where we spend our money.

What reallu pissed me off was they spent the whole flight in the bloody galley drinking and laughing which they could have done without pissing off C class passengers

Of course they all left with a bag full of those daft ( not delft ) houses

I agree, staff upfront (in stead of you) should not occur if you are paying to be there, my point. If there are available seats then I do not mind staff staying there - I see no need to upgrade M-passengers to C so staff can sit in M.

The same goes for that I do not think you should have any staff next to you on longhaul travel nor should you be bumped out of your seat in any way. I do not think you should be in a middle seat in short haul economy and staff in the same cabin. If there are free seats left, be my guest.

The only thing KLM made me sure of is that I will not be travelling with them again in C. I now have what I wanted, which is access to the lounges. Next time I decide to fly C I will chose a different airline, for economy, I will more than happily stick with KL.

It is truely their loss, not mine.

(incidentally, my room mate is now dating KL Cc)

so that is his place in C secured...

i guess so. :( :D

How long ago was this and how many more times are you going to repeat this story here Steve?
It is getting a bit monotonous.
You said you've moved on to China Airlines (with the world's worst safety record) and that is your choice.

Excuse me?
I know some very nice looking KL staff that I'd love to have sitting next to me.
And on longhaul? The longer the better!! :D :D

i have been posting here for quite some time, and i had never heard it. And it seems to go continuously so it seems relevant... We can't all be blindly devoted AFKL fans....

I've flown many carriers intra European C, unfortunately KLM ranks as one of the lower ones if the cabin is full. As layz noted Czech airlines on the other hand has a great C-product, and with the unlimited free upgrades the choice for me is simple.

I will continue to mkae sure people who are loking for the truth get it and that people like you who obviously have a fetish for KLM dont mislead them into wasting money because you think you FF card makes you someone special with without doubt the worst airline in Europe.

Remind me again about that pratt of a pilot who took off on his own accord and caused the worst air crash in Europe.


OOOOpppppps better be careful now that klmsaynowrong crew will be after me

When was this flight when you were downgraded?
Must have been at least 2 1/2 years ago as I keep on reading this story every few months or so.
I do find it fascinating that you keep repeating this story as some kind of mission.
In my opinion no airline is perfect, KL absolutely not either, but also the MH/CX/SQ/BA/VS's have messed up in some ways on some of my flights the past 3 years.

I don't think anyone on this forum is, except for the obvious KL-sponsored posters...

Easy now...
 

Back to the OP's original disappointment, and moving away from the personalisation of the arguments expressed so far, I'd like to ask about a key difference between Europe Select and other short/medium haul (eg intra-European) business classes from other companies:

How much of the experience is the SEAT (leg room, number of seats abreast, etc) VERSUS the other bits of business class (food, and real or perceived priority regarding boarding, check in, etc, newspapers, what have you).

Answers in percent of seat being the most important please, so 100% means seat means everything, food/priority/etc means nothing, down to 0% means you don't care what the seating arrangements are, it's the lounges, priority, food etc that matter

Techno

I think we all agree to some extent that KLM is bad, however I personally find this comment unacceptable.
I believe this is even the worst crash ever to have happened.

short flights 100%, long flights 90%. (Thay may seem illogical, since seat comfort is relatively more important on longer flights, but on short flights I don't need food or drink at all, whereas on longer flights one needs to drink and eat, so catering does come into the equation. Lounges etc are a elite benefit for me, therefore irrellevant from a class of travel perspective).

Johan

Correct.

and of course your not one one of them !!!! or did you really come from the KLM island Ewan McGregor escaped from - reading your posts if we cut you in half you have KLM stamped all the way through - please dont forget KLM is a 3 star airline according to Skytrax and what people write on there ceratinly makes me wonder how Ryanair are rated lower then KLM

Everyone, please keep the conversation focused on the miserable Europe Select product, and not on other posters.

I'm a small person, so the amount of room does not bother me much, and I have to say that the C class cakes are always very good - how shallow is that? I never pay for C though so I don't really care, but every time KLMc fly to Glasgow on an F100 or F70 it is overbooked and I get an op up. Can't complain really.

I have also flown on the NW domestic 1st which is a comparible journey type. I prefer the NW seats on their Airbuses but I don't like their food as much, plus on my last NW flight in 1st the woman behind me had the cheek to complain when i reclined the seat! What a .....! I told her I'd been in the air for 18hrs and to can it. Did the trick and I slept the whole flight. No food offered at all but it was quite late.

My other comparison was with BMI, I paid for a business class seat out of CDG once because the place was a hell hole, my flight had landed early and they wouldn't let me take the earlier one - .......s - not just KLM have poor service. Anyway, again their seats had far more room, but the food was sub-par and I was the only passenger in the cabin. I do believe they have ceased doing business class on the LHR - CDG route. Only positive thing about the BMI experience was that the stewards were flirting with me the whole time, but they were both men - obviously.

such a classicly great thread this. we go from europe select seats to blaming pilots causing deadliest crashes to sawing posters in half to flirting gay BMI stewards, all within 4, 5 posts.

one has to love it.

Well said!!
:D :D

I'll speak up for KL intra-Europe C, but not for ES... KL op-up AMS-LHR is great when you're on the 763/332. On one occasion we took off from the Polderbaan, 20-25 mins from the gate, then after the 22 minute flight we circled LHR for almost an hour, so all the more time to drink pre-Christmas alcohol at the expense of the blue demons. Then a long enough wait for BA to reluctantly allow KL to dock at T4 that I could almost detox. Almost three hours from boarding to disembarkation - I've been on CO IAH-EWR flights that take less net time (1415 air miles compared with 217). Nice to have a genuine WBC seat for that period.

In fact my last few op-nonups to ES on the 734/8/9 have resulted in worse flights (crowded, middle seats, non-stowage of my carry ons etc.) than I would have had if I'd remained in my carefully obtained regular M seat.

The truth is that ES product is not worth paying extra for as it stands. If they're serious about attracting paying customers for a C product there needs to be more leg/shoulder/butt room and more comfortable seats. This doesn't have to mean full WBC config, something along the lines of CO's domestic F would be good. To be workable this also means controlling the rampant overbooking in Y (M in KL-speak, I suppose).

But the KL revenue managers have clearly determined that the marginal increment in revenue created by a genuine intra-Europe C is not equal to the marginal increment created by mass overbooking in M and daily use of ES as a holding pen for displaced M pax.

RTS