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"KLM Outlines Potential Network Reduction Due To Schiphol ‘Green Cap’"

"KLM Outlines Potential Network Reduction Due To Schiphol ‘Green Cap’"

Old Oct 12, 2022, 1:00 am
  #1  
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"KLM Outlines Potential Network Reduction Due To Schiphol ‘Green Cap’"

Any merit to this? Haven't seen much chatter about this on FT:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...hol-green-cap/

A KLM position paper, seen by Aviation Week Network, outlines one scenario where around 30 destinations could face closure, including some 25 short-haul routes from AMS such as Belgrade (BEG), Istanbul (IST), Kiev (KBP), Porto (OPO) and Tel Aviv (TLV). At least five longer routes from AMS could also be on the line. Potential dropped destinations include Bahrain (BAH), Kuwait City (KWI) and Muscat (MCT) in the Middle East; Boston (BOS), Edmonton (YEG) and Montreal (YUL) in North America; and Osaka (ITM), Taipei (TPE) and secondary Chinese destinations such as Hangzhou (HGH) and Xiamen (XMN) in Asia.
I'll be so mad if they ditch BAH.

Last edited by Sweet Willie; Oct 12, 2022 at 7:15 am Reason: remove comment not needed after moving post
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 8:37 am
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I hadn't realised KLM was serving Itami...

Anyway I wouldn't put too much importance on this list. Any information that is actually valid there is absolutely subject to change at any time.
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 8:58 am
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KLM serves Osaka Kansai (KIX)
(the new one on the island)

Osaka Itami is north of Umeda and serves domestic and regional flights only.
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 9:10 am
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Yes, I am aware of this. So either the website here is incompetent in which case it should not be trusted. Or the source material listed ITM as well in which cause it should not be trusted. Either way I don't pay much attention to this list.
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 11:23 am
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Originally Posted by dkeng
Anyway I wouldn't put too much importance on this list.
I suspect that the prime purpose of this list is to put pressure on the government and parliament to reconsider their green cap plans. The destinations may well have been selected with that purpose in mind.

Originally Posted by Nayef
I'll be so mad if they ditch BAH.
What a fortuitous coincidence that the airport IATA code aligns perfectly with your sentiments.

Johan
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 11:44 am
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Originally Posted by dkeng
So either the website here is incompetent in which case it should not be trusted. Or the source material listed ITM as well in which cause it should not be trusted.
Luchtvaartnieuws published an article about this over a week ago, citing a KLM position paper sent to the Dutch parliament as their source. They didn't include a comprehensive list of affected destinations, but the ones mentioned chime with your post.

Johan
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 12:11 pm
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Originally Posted by johan rebel

What a fortuitous coincidence that the airport IATA code aligns perfectly with your sentiments.

Johan
Very good catch!
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 3:09 pm
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Since we are talking about being green, why don't they start by ditching all these short-haul flights, like AMS-BRU, AMS-DUS, AMS-LUX, AMS-HAM, AMS-FRA and replace them with trains?
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 3:40 pm
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It's not that easy. While AMS has an in-airport trainstation, other nearby airporta do not.

For this to workyou need to be able to offer the same level of comfort abd service as you can on planes. Connections should be seemless and the same level of protection should be offered to passengers.

The ultimate train connections would depart and arrive airside, and run nonstop between airports. But the rail network is crowded as is, and expanding the network is very expensive and very slow. Permits, acquiring ground, environmental issues, etc. All in all much more complicated than a few km of asphalt on either side.
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 4:09 pm
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Originally Posted by jerry_greece
Since we are talking about being green, why don't they start by ditching all these short-haul flights, like AMS-BRU, AMS-DUS, AMS-LUX, AMS-HAM, AMS-FRA and replace them with trains?
Hamburg to Amsterdam by train takes around 6 hours with 2-3 times connecting somewhere, this is nowhere attractive or competitive. A direct train could probably do it in less than five hours, which is still too long. But heres my deal: let Delta fly ATL- or JFK-HAM them KLM can drop their AMS-HAM.
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 4:26 pm
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Originally Posted by roelb
It's not that easy. While AMS has an in-airport trainstation, other nearby airporta do not.
Surely the final destinations / originations of most people are the cities themselves and not the airports.
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Old Oct 12, 2022, 4:50 pm
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Originally Posted by jerry_greece
Since we are talking about being green, why don't they start by ditching all these short-haul flights, like AMS-BRU, AMS-DUS, AMS-LUX, AMS-HAM, AMS-FRA and replace them with trains?
When a traveler is flying with lots of checked luggage , airport pick-up and drop-off for the luggage can be better for such traveler than having to deal with trains and train stations/stops with that same load of luggage. Given the possibility of (a) out-of-service escalators and elevators, (b) stinky/gross elevators at some stations, and (c) the baggage cart situation, I’d rather stick with flights for the short leg too on trips with lots of checked luggage. Also, checked luggage has airlines liable for mess-ups with checked luggage.
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Old Oct 13, 2022, 1:53 am
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Originally Posted by Bear96
Surely the final destinations / originations of most people are the cities themselves and not the airports.
Surely the cities themselves are far from always the final destination or origin for most people.

I've flown to/from AMS many hundreds of times, and can't recall when I last set foot in the city itself.

This whole idea that trains can replace planes is detached from reality. It might perhaps just work on a very small number of select routes (AMS-BRU comes to mind), but that's about it.

Just look at the AMS-BER saga. They've been going on about it for years, and nothing much happens. Every now and then one hears that an investment of a couple of billion Euro will cut the travel time by 15 or 20 minutes in seven or eight years time, etc. I bet that will result in a mass stampede of airline pax switching to the train.

Johan
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Old Oct 13, 2022, 1:55 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
When a traveler is flying with lots of checked luggage.
The obvious solution is of course to not travel with lots of checked luggage. I know, it's unavoidable for some at times, but I'm convinced the vast majority of pax bring way more luggage than they need to.

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Old Oct 13, 2022, 3:31 am
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Replacing flights with trains to airports makes the most sense for short feeder routes to hubs. AMS-ZYR makes sense for KLM but not for SN, as they want you in Zaventem (anyway I don't think they even operate this route). And certainly the railway connection must be high speed and direct which limits options. FRA is probably the best connected high speed airport in Europe, and so it makes sense for LH to transport passengers by train to Dusseldorf or Stuttgart for example. LHR-Manchester would make a great train feeder, but of course UK is useless at joined up transport planning.

For O/D traffic good quality high speed trains should be able to outcompete air travel for short distances, but of course the investment needed is relatively high..
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