KLM Flight Cancelation Rights (Iceland/Brazil via AMS)
Feb 5, 2022, 5:59 pm
#1
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KLM Flight Cancelation Rights (Iceland/Brazil via AMS)
What are the EU 261/2004 rights when the return flights from iceland via AMS to Brazil are canceled by KLM?
The return was delayed by almost a week.
RC
The return was delayed by almost a week.
RC
Feb 5, 2022, 8:36 pm
#2
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It depends on how long in advance it was canceled. If it is more than 2 weeks you may not get anything, otherwise they have the duty of care (provide hotel, food, etc) and you should get 600 euro compensation.
Feb 5, 2022, 11:26 pm
#3
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I find it hard to believe that the return flight would be delayed by more than a week. Not only are there frequent flights from Iceland to AMS but also from AMS to Brazil, if not on KLM then on other carriers. What happened there? Was this during the first COVID wave or something?
Feb 8, 2022, 10:55 pm
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I find it hard to believe that the return flight would be delayed by more than a week. Not only are there frequent flights from Iceland to AMS but also from AMS to Brazil, if not on KLM then on other carriers. What happened there? Was this during the first COVID wave or something?
Feb 9, 2022, 1:10 am
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Feb 9, 2022, 3:48 am
#8
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Duty to care is never absolved by the 2 weeks advance notice. That only affects compensation. Same as with weather delays.
Feb 9, 2022, 11:48 am
#9
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Feb 10, 2022, 3:20 am
#10
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Well, the cancelling airline is responsible for rebooking the passenger to another flight, if need be on another carrier. If they refuse, the passenger book a new flight with another airline and send the bills to the cancelling airline.
Feb 10, 2022, 3:45 am
#11
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There's no right under EC261 to be rebooked on another airline. One of the few drawbacks of EC261 as a passenger.
Feb 10, 2022, 4:04 am
#12
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Article 5
Cancellation
1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:
(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and
(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of re-routing when the reasonably expected time of departure of the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and
(c) have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless:
(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or
...
3. An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
Cancellation
1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:
(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and
(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of re-routing when the reasonably expected time of departure of the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and
(c) have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless:
(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or
...
3. An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
The "unless" clause is only referring to Article 7 - compensation.
Furthermore, extraordinary circumstances exception is only refering to Article 7 as well.
In conclusion, assistance per Article 9 is applicable to every cancellation resulting in a change in travel times.
There is a right under EC261 to be rebooked on another airline. "At the earliest opportunity" does not mean "on the next flight of the same carrier", this has been confirmed by courts. Even if the airlines try to weasel out of this obligation.
Feb 10, 2022, 5:27 am
#13
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Interestingly enough, the only Skyteam airline that serves KEF is Delta, and that is of course only seasonal. And no, I really do not think that KLM will rebook the OP onto a DL flight KEF-USA-Brazil, even if there happened to be a suitable DL flight operating on the relevant day.
The only airlines flying KEF-AMS (other than HV) are Icelandair and PLAY; without even knowing how frequent those services are, I simply cannot see KLM rebooking on one of these carriers to get the OP to AMS where they may be able to join their originally-booked AMS-Brazil flight. The same issue applies with airlines flying to PAR (for an AF-related rebooking option) - again, only Icelandair and PLAY fly to CDG (there is also Transavia to ORY, but that's seasonal).
*PERHAPS* if the OP checks, and sees whether the KEF-ORY Transavia flight is operating on that day, or on a more acceptable date than the one proposed to AMS, then there could be a rebooking done (but it would involve the OP having to make their own way from ORY to CDG, and then joining an AF flight to Brazil from CDG rather than their booked KL flight from AMS) - so keep that in mind before requesting this option).
The regulators may have intended that EC261/2004 would require rebooking on alternate carriers in such a situation, but that's not what the regulation actually says. In this current situation, there appears little chance of convincing KLM to rebook you a new KEF-XXX-Brazil flight; so if the extra week doesn't suit, I think you will be looking at just getting a full refund.
(To those saying the regulation does mean they should be rebooked onto ANY other carrier - does the case law actually support this view? Even if it does, this looks like a battle the OP would have to take to court, i.e. they are powerless to "force" KLM to rebook onto another carrier in advance, but would instead have to buy their own new ticket, and attempt claiming the cost back from KLM via a claim that may end up in court)
The only airlines flying KEF-AMS (other than HV) are Icelandair and PLAY; without even knowing how frequent those services are, I simply cannot see KLM rebooking on one of these carriers to get the OP to AMS where they may be able to join their originally-booked AMS-Brazil flight. The same issue applies with airlines flying to PAR (for an AF-related rebooking option) - again, only Icelandair and PLAY fly to CDG (there is also Transavia to ORY, but that's seasonal).
*PERHAPS* if the OP checks, and sees whether the KEF-ORY Transavia flight is operating on that day, or on a more acceptable date than the one proposed to AMS, then there could be a rebooking done (but it would involve the OP having to make their own way from ORY to CDG, and then joining an AF flight to Brazil from CDG rather than their booked KL flight from AMS) - so keep that in mind before requesting this option).
The regulators may have intended that EC261/2004 would require rebooking on alternate carriers in such a situation, but that's not what the regulation actually says. In this current situation, there appears little chance of convincing KLM to rebook you a new KEF-XXX-Brazil flight; so if the extra week doesn't suit, I think you will be looking at just getting a full refund.
(To those saying the regulation does mean they should be rebooked onto ANY other carrier - does the case law actually support this view? Even if it does, this looks like a battle the OP would have to take to court, i.e. they are powerless to "force" KLM to rebook onto another carrier in advance, but would instead have to buy their own new ticket, and attempt claiming the cost back from KLM via a claim that may end up in court)
Feb 10, 2022, 5:57 am
#14
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I do not know if there is specific case law, but there are interpretative guidelines from the EC (admittedly from 2016, but still) about the whole regulation: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...0615(01)&rid=1
Edit: There's https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...CJ0354&from=NL, which states
When passengers are offered the option of continuation or re-routing of a journey, this must be ‘under comparable transport conditions’.
Whether transport conditions are comparable can depend on a number of factors and must be decided on a case-by-case basis. Depending on the circumstances, the following good practices are recommended:
— if possible, passengers should not be downgraded to transport facilities of a lower class compared with the one on the reservation (in the event of downgrading, the compensation provided for in Article 10 applies),
— re-routing should be offered at no additional cost to the passenger, even where passengers are re-routed with another air carrier or on a different transport mode or in a higher class or at a higher fare than the one paid for the original service,
— reasonable efforts are to be made to avoid additional connections,
— when using another air carrier or an alternative mode of transport for the part of the journey not completed as planned, the total travel time should, if possible, be as reasonably close as possible to the scheduled travel time of the original journey in the same or higher class of carriage if necessary,
— if several flights are available with comparable timings, passengers having the right to re-routing should accept the offer of re-routing made by the carrier, including on those air carriers cooperating with the operating carrier,
— if assistance for people with disabilities or reduced mobility was booked for the original journey, such assistance should equally be available on the alternative route.
Whether transport conditions are comparable can depend on a number of factors and must be decided on a case-by-case basis. Depending on the circumstances, the following good practices are recommended:
— if possible, passengers should not be downgraded to transport facilities of a lower class compared with the one on the reservation (in the event of downgrading, the compensation provided for in Article 10 applies),
— re-routing should be offered at no additional cost to the passenger, even where passengers are re-routed with another air carrier or on a different transport mode or in a higher class or at a higher fare than the one paid for the original service,
— reasonable efforts are to be made to avoid additional connections,
— when using another air carrier or an alternative mode of transport for the part of the journey not completed as planned, the total travel time should, if possible, be as reasonably close as possible to the scheduled travel time of the original journey in the same or higher class of carriage if necessary,
— if several flights are available with comparable timings, passengers having the right to re-routing should accept the offer of re-routing made by the carrier, including on those air carriers cooperating with the operating carrier,
— if assistance for people with disabilities or reduced mobility was booked for the original journey, such assistance should equally be available on the alternative route.
In making a specific offer, the operating air carrier must take into account and combine several relevant factors which determine that offer, in particular the arrival time at the final destination following the re-routing envisaged, the conditions subject to which the re-routing envisaged may take place and whether the re-routing at issue is practicable through its own good offices or requires the assistance of another air carrier, as the case may be depending on the latter’s availability.In addition, the responsibility of offering and organising re-routing under Article 8(1)(b) of Regulation No 261/2004, a responsibility borne by the air carrier concerned, entails the burden of proving that the re-routing thus organised was performed at the earliest opportunity.
Last edited by mfkne; Feb 10, 2022 at 6:06 am
Feb 10, 2022, 10:35 am
#15
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The Regulation is clear:
Article 8 is reimbursement or rerouting, Article 9 is right to care. You note that in either of these cases is there an "unless" clause.
The "unless" clause is only referring to Article 7 - compensation.
Furthermore, extraordinary circumstances exception is only refering to Article 7 as well.
In conclusion, assistance per Article 9 is applicable to every cancellation resulting in a change in travel times.
There is a right under EC261 to be rebooked on another airline. "At the earliest opportunity" does not mean "on the next flight of the same carrier", this has been confirmed by courts. Even if the airlines try to weasel out of this obligation.
Article 8 is reimbursement or rerouting, Article 9 is right to care. You note that in either of these cases is there an "unless" clause.
The "unless" clause is only referring to Article 7 - compensation.
Furthermore, extraordinary circumstances exception is only refering to Article 7 as well.
In conclusion, assistance per Article 9 is applicable to every cancellation resulting in a change in travel times.
There is a right under EC261 to be rebooked on another airline. "At the earliest opportunity" does not mean "on the next flight of the same carrier", this has been confirmed by courts. Even if the airlines try to weasel out of this obligation.