mfkne

The Dutch transport minister has agreed on several measures with Schiphol and Dutch airlines, among which:

- All air travelers to the Netherlands will be required to present a negative COVID test prior to boarding

She is also looking into requiring passengers to actively declare their travel is essential.

Source:
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/binarie...n-covid-19.pdf

It is unclear whether that negative test requirement is the same as the one that went into effect on the 15th (see https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwe...testverklaring) which exempts EU citizens and their relatives, or if this is a new one. The latter would be surprising because on that afore linked page it also says a law change is required to require EU citizens to present a negative test, which is not expected to pass before Spring of 2021.

Then again this is the minister who ignored EU law and allowed KLM to issue vouchers, so I guess all bets are off here.

johan rebel

Oh boy! The Dutch government is obviously trying to finish off what remains of the travel and hospitality industry before March 21st, only to then spend millions of taxpayer money in an attempt to resuscitate the whole lot.

None of this makes any sense whatsoever. Covid is already spreading like wildfire in the Netherlands, restricting cross-border travel won't make any difference, but is sure to cause further harm to the economy.

Am I ever glad I don't have to give a hoot about Rutte, that infrastructure doctorandus, the entire indignant Tweede Kamer and their attempts to boss people around.

They are complaining about overcrowding at Schiphol? They should try MEX and CUN, currently two of the busiest airports in the world.

I walked out through the empty T2 baggage hall this afternoon, once again I was the only pax there. Nobody asked me where I came from, nor where I was was going. The customs officers were hiding as usual, avoiding all contact with anybody outside their safe space.

​​​​​​​Johan

Ditto

I believe they won't have to pass a law if "Dutch airlines" would agree to implement the requirement for them, reading the letter I especially like how she said KMar will now make an effort to staff all available counters, as if that ever happened pre-covid.

Romanianflyer

How on earth do they want to enforce this given that non-essential is still allowed? The government strongly advises against it - but that doesn't make it illegal or possible to turn away non-essential travellers without some changes to the law.

The Dutch Government has absolutely no idea what they are doing. There have been no infection clusters linked to air travel or airports whatsoever. The great majority of COVID-19 infections happens at people's houses/work. Let them start enforcing some changes there for real instead of jumping on the anti-travel hysteria bandwagon.

johan rebel

Hear, hear!
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They've gone completely bonkers. Hysteria, panic and paranoia rule, they prefer to pick on easy targets such as those who choose to travel, knowing they will meet with the approbation of the jealous and fearful segments of the populace who want everybody to be as miserable as they are, all in the name of equality and fairness.

I'm on a plane that just pushed back late, packed with families with children undertaking extremely essential journeys. I guess they must all be deaf, none of them heard Rutte crying in the wilderness.

Johan

HeyUpDuck

Under Dutch law, non-essential travel is still allowed isn't it? How can they ask, let alone, prevent people from travelling without changing the law? I understand that 3rd countries such as those from the US are prevented from entering but EU/Schengen/UK are not.
The EU ignored enforcement of their own law, or at least they gave an exception based on the extraordinary circumstance of the pandemic.

As Romanianflyer said, the Dutch government hasn't a clue. Much like us British.

Romanianflyer

Yeap, non-essential travel from the Netherlands is still allowed. You can even visit countries on the "orange list" of countries with a negative travel advise (now the entire rest of the world!). On your return you are still "strongly advised" to go into self-isolation - again, not something which is legally enforced.

Non-essential travel to the Netherlands is also still OK, as long as you hail from the EU/UK/wider EEA and fulfil all legal entry requirements. There isn't much of a point now though, with most of the country being closed down.

About that travel declaration/statement, legal experts are now also rebuking the Dutch Minister. To quote a headline from the country's biggest newspaper: "travel statement is unfeasible, cannot be legally upheld". Legal experts say such a law would never stand when challenged in court, apparently asking for a travel declaration would also contravene privacy laws.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/1440...sch-geen-stand

I'm far from a legal expert, but this was something we could all easily see coming. The minister just shouts something without thinking, driven by the clueless mob of people who got angry when they saw video footage of crowds of people queuing for security at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport. Of course, all that drives such people is envy. "I didn't travel this year/don't travel now, so others should not be allowed as well to travel!". Same with shop closures. "Why is that shop still open while we have to close? They should close too and suffer as well!" As a Dutchie living abroad, there are things from home which I miss. But the envy, the urge to cut down others who don't comply with your own worldview or those in general who stick out their neck - well, that's something I certainly don't miss.

The UK also has its share of idiotic laws for sure especially when looking at some idiotic situations in Scotland or Wales, or the stuff about the "substantial meals" and scotch eggs if it wouldn't have that many consequences for hard-working people it would be almost hilarious.

That said, I still think the Netherlands would win the top award. We're now almost a year in the corona crisis and the Dutch still didn't pass laws to actually enforce home isolation/quarantine. Not even on those who have actually tested positive! Imagine!

And there is a whole lot coming more. At least you Brits started to vaccine people and what I heard it looks like everything is running smoothly. The Dutch health minister apparently only found out now that the IT systems of the public health authority are not compatible with running a mass vaccination programme and we still have to see whether we can start vaccinating in January! Why didn't the government inquire/prepare months ago? After all, they knew the vaccine was coming? There is literally ZERO foresight.

flyingcrazy

I have to say my experience landing in the Netherlands during a layover to Luxembourg was almost pre pandemic. Aside from an announcement on the flight and a sign advising me that I 'should' self isolate for 10 days, there was no form to fill out and the border agent waved me through once he saw I had a UK passport. In fact all he said was 'Hi' and 'goodbye'. It clearly is advisory and I felt no pressure to comply. I actually had a disagreement with a Dutch lady on the flight who insisted she had to self isolate for 10 days and it was mandatory, was certain she was wrong.

Contrast to that to my arrival in the UK the other day where a bunch of very angry border control people were yelling at everyone to fill out this electronic PLF. Fortunately you can fill out the PLF with utter nonsense if you so wish, they just glance at it briefly to check you have a QR code from it. Felt very sorry for those whose English was not great who had not filled one out and ended being marched over to a desk to receive a Ł200 fine. On arrival and after submitting the PLF I legally 'must' self isolate for 14 days (since cut to 10).

I hope the Netherlands does not inflict further nonsense on its population by making the 10 day quarantine mandatory and demanding people fill out a form.

Up until about a month ago I felt the Netherlands was sort of a middle ground between the UK and Sweden. Not as barking mad as the UK and forceful in its enforcement, but evidently more strict than Sweden in terms of shutting restaurants etc. Was comforting to know somewhere more relaxed was out there, however it seems the Dutch PM is now hell bent on joining the nutty express train to nowhere.

johan rebel

Welcome to Sweden.

I took the not nutty train across from Denmark yesterday, Even before crossing the bridge the masks just vanished. What a relief!

I must confess that mask mania seems to have gained a tiny toehold in this country now. Until today I has seen only one single masked person ever in my local community (which to the best of my knowledge has zero diagnosed Covid cases), but this morning I saw three in our general store. But then I went to town this afternoon and saw none.

Yeah, Corona is rife in Sweden, but so it is in locked-down and masked Holland and England. Am I ever glad that I live where I do. And should I feel that a change of scenery is called for, neither Mark nor Boris can stop me from going on vacation.

Johan

flyingcrazy

Do you live in Sweden? It was and still is the number1 sane country in Europe at the moment, however the media today is full of nonsense about how the King there wants lockdowns and masks and how Tegnell is away to be fired so they can finally save everyone there with masks and lockdowns, phew for them! I do hope it is nonsense. Been hearing stuff about how Sweden will finally admit it was wrong and lock the place down any second since March. Reality is its hugely inconvenient for every other country who hysterically overreacted that Sweden took a much calmer and rational approach.

When I was last in the Netherlands proper (as in not transiting AMS) was October and even then masks were 'advised' where as they have been mandatory in the UK since July. Sad reality is nobody seems to have the nerve to keep on their trajectory and get spooked into becoming as barking mad as everyone else. Very sad.

As for Boris and Mark banning vacations, it seems despite Mark's efforts there is nobody to stop you, and here in the UK you get a bored police officer at the airport asking and so long as you say 'work' they wave you through. Always work arounds!

I am considering going to Stockholm for New Year to have a semi normal New Year with normal people not treating everything like a bio hazard. Frustratingly looks like I will be banned from entering the EU/EEA after January 1st as I am a diseased Brit but never mind, got to push the doors that are open, always Mexico or Brazil!

johan rebel

I do, although most years I'm out of the country 6-8 months. Not quite 6 this year, despite C-19.

Yeah, unfortunately some here are starting to lose their nerve and are even panicking. Apparently we have to follow the glorious example of all those countries who have been assiduously wrecking the economy, and severely restricting their citizens' liberty and freedom, with little to show for it other than Corona spreading like wildfire and fatality rates equal to or higher than Sweden's.

Sweden of course failed miserably when it came to protecting the small minority who account for almost all C-19 deaths, i.e. the very old and very ill, but so did many other locked-down and masked countries.
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Johan

flyingcrazy

I look at Sweden's figures and see no real difference in death/infection compared to most European countries. I know people love to say 'but its so much than Norway's and Finland's' but by using that logic you could say its a lot worse than the figures on the moon. 89% of Sweden lives within 2% of its land, and Stockholm has a very similar population density to London, plus its population is almost twice that of Norway, Denmark or Finland. Its fairer to compare Sweden with other European countries of which it is not performing worse.

Ultimately most European countries have trashed their economies, thrown the concept of civil liberties out of the window and now living in constant fear and a constant roundabout of lockdowns and silly restrictions. Very sad that Sweden could be joining this train wreck which frankly is proven to not work at all.

the810

Unfortunatelly in Sweden politicians now took control over from the health authorities and jumped on the train of failed European strategies, changing rules every week, each time generating a new random number for the size of a party at restaurant table, or the time when it has to close. The sad part is that they started copying the exact same meassures that failed elsewhere in Europe, which proves that the only point is for the government to look like they're doing something.

The Netherlands seems to be the same. Everyone with half a brain must be aware that introducing border restrictions (incl. test requirements) is completely pointless when you have massive uncontrolled community spread within​ the country.

We're in a pandemic. People are dying and they will continue dying. That is sad. But true leaders should have guts to tell people that this can't be prevented. Yes, we can take some reasonable precautions to slow the spread but the disease will not dissapear. By failing to clearly say that, politicians all over Europe created a false hope that we'll somehow prevent people from dying - and now they can't fulfill that promise, so they just shoot random regulations that destroy everything else, in order to signal that they're trying​ (and by that reinforcing that false hope we can somehow stop it).

I'm not a fan of Boris Johnson by any means, but he's the only politician I know who did have courage to take the right stance in the beginning and clearly said that people will die and it can't be prevented. Unfortunatelly, it didn't last long.

mpkz

This is completely nuts.

Firstly, on masks: The "weak" evidence on masks relates to randomized controlled trials which are typically underpowered and unable to capture the benefits of proper source control. Evidence on MASK MANDATES looking at real world data typically show significant benefits to large-scale mask adoption in terms of slowing down spread. Even if you're only getting a 5% reduction in the reproduction rate as a result of mask mandates, the cost of masks is nearly nothing. You get a sweaty face and pay 30 cents. The concerns of the Dutch and Swedish health authorities that people will be less likely to distance with masks have zero evidence for them and are completely out of line with the rest of the world - common sense would tell you that seeing people with masks on would make you more aware of the ongoing pandemic..

Second, on the comparable countries for Sweden: So Finland and Norway are not comparable? You guys are seriously arguing that the NL (pop density > 500 per sqm), Belgium (>350) and the UK (>250) are better comparisons for Sweden (about 25) than Finland (18) or Norway (16)? Okay, maybe nationwide population density doesn't matter, maybe it's just density in cities. Then why is it that almost every province of Sweden has many times more deaths per capita than Finland or Norway (https://www.svt.se/datajournalistik/...coronavirus/)?

Third, maybe they saved the economy: Once again, this may be true if you use the UK and Belgium as comparisons but the economic damage is completely comparable to Finland or Norway. Consumer spending in Sweden has been lower throughout the crisis because, shockingly, over-50s might not want to go to restaurants and cafes when a virus that will put them in a hospital with an over 10% probability is spreading in an uncontrolled fashion: https://corporate.nordea.com/article...d-data-week-49 The countries that controlled the virus from the beginning (China, Taiwan, South Korea) are also the countries with the strongest economic performance this year. Yes, some countries (Singapore, NZ, HK) have performed worse than SOME countries which let the virus loose (USA) but on average tackling the virus is good for the economy, letting the virus loose is bad. At the latest, most countries impose restrictions once their health systems are threatened, which they almost universally have been, so not imposing early restrictions to try to eliminate the virus is just delaying those same restrictions.

I'm not even sure what to say to the people who say that restrictions don't work. The virus spreads through contacts with infectious people. Restrictions lower the probability of contacts and hence the probability of contact with infectious people. This is an almost mechanical effect. Is it possible that the restrictions are not strong enough or that some of them do not reduce contacts? Sure. But the idea that the virus can't be controlled or eliminated is just stupid - look at Asia, Australia and New Zealand for elimination, Japan and South Korea for control. Also, some restrictions are clearly more theatrical than useful, but at this point with people ignoring restrictions it may be good to make the pandemic a bit more salient in their minds again.

Do travel restrictions help if your country is among the ones with the highest rates of spread like the NL? Maybe not, but if people are traveling to Aruba and partying on the beach there, it can very easily lead to completely unnecessary spread compared to people staying at home with limited contacts.

So in short, wear a mask if you're required to or if you're in close contact with people - it's almost completely cost-free. Avoid unnecessary risks. Coronavirus spreads before symptoms appear, your own assessment of your health does not capture this. And while you may not have contact with vulnerable people, the people you meet and infect may. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with travel and have continued to do so during the pandemic, but I also understand that me taking a city break alone or with my girlfriend does not materially change the number of contacts that I have whereas for many people a holiday is a chance to socialize and hence can understand why the government wants to discourage travel.

After the crisis, almost no one will be looking at Sweden as a success story. It did not save its economy. It did not achieve quick, natural herd immunity which would have allowed life to continue as normal. It did not protect the vulnerable. It failed in almost every aspect of its strategy. Every prediction about natural herd immunity and a tougher second wave in Finland and Norway was wrong. The predictions that the economy would do better were wrong. The prediction that we would not get a vaccine quickly and would have to learn to live with the virus was wrong. The funny thing is that Finland and Norway are not success stories either - they benefit (like Sweden) from a highly compliant and spread-out population and economies without much tourism and the ability to work from home, yet they performed worse than the countries without these advantages that eliminated the virus quickly. But at least they are not unmitigated failures like Sweden.

NickB

There is a thread in the Nordic region forum on the splendour or squalor of the Swedish approach to managing the virus. If some are inclined to continue the discussion on this topic, may I suggest that they give some consideration to the possibility of continuing it there rather than here?