KLM refund
Apr 18, 2020, 6:17 am
#17
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
As KL apparently cancelled its own flight BKK-AMS, you are entitled to a reimbursement (refund) under the rebooking rights of EC 261/2004.
1. Keep copies, screenshots, and notes of everything.
2. Make a request to KL for a reimbursement / refund to KL for the full amount of the ticket. Specify that you want this refunded to your original form of payment, e.g. credit card.
3. If after 7 days, KL has not initiated a refund, file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) and supply:
A. e-ticket receipt.
B. cancellation notice or screen shot showing cancelled.
C. request for refund.
D. any response from KL.
Keep your communication down to only that which is irrelevant, e.g., that KL as the operating (and ticketing???) carrier, has cancelled a flight and you have elected a refund under EC 261/2004.
Apr 18, 2020, 6:23 am
#18
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
I had the same scenario LHR-AMS-BKK and BKK-AMS-LHR booked months ago to fly in the first week of April. KLM cancelled same of the flights. Spoke twice to Platinum Service Line (PSL) and one of those times the agent sent a refund request to KLM Cusomter Care Team. Every communication from KLM stated that they will not give a refund - as far as KLM are concerned consumer laws do not exist. I'm a UK citizen and our Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has a series of webpages about what airlines should be doing when they cancel flights. If KLM do not want to release a refund there is nothing you can do about getting the money from them, the law does not apply anymore now that it is not in the airlines favour.
I collected all the cancellation emails, e-ticket, written summary of phone calls etc. and made an AMEX UK dispute. After about 3 weeks still nothing back. Gave up as I expect to lose not matter what evidence I supply, as remember consumer laws do not apply anymore and KLM can do what they like. Asked for a voucher as something is better than nothing. I am 99.999999999% certain that if I tried to use the voucher for the same routing, same cabin and at the same dates (although 1 year later) that the ticket price will be alot more expensive. So I can only wait for 12 months to convert the voucher back into a refund on my credit card - beware that you have to get KLM to do that, they will not do that automatically after 12 months.
Suffice to say. I will not be booking with KLM again unless I have not other option.
I collected all the cancellation emails, e-ticket, written summary of phone calls etc. and made an AMEX UK dispute. After about 3 weeks still nothing back. Gave up as I expect to lose not matter what evidence I supply, as remember consumer laws do not apply anymore and KLM can do what they like. Asked for a voucher as something is better than nothing. I am 99.999999999% certain that if I tried to use the voucher for the same routing, same cabin and at the same dates (although 1 year later) that the ticket price will be alot more expensive. So I can only wait for 12 months to convert the voucher back into a refund on my credit card - beware that you have to get KLM to do that, they will not do that automatically after 12 months.
Suffice to say. I will not be booking with KLM again unless I have not other option.
1. "Consumer" laws have not been suspended. In this case, EC 261/2004 most certainly applies as KL is an EU carrier. The EC recently issued guidance making it clear that it certainly does apply and your experience is odd as there are many reports here of people obtaining chargeback credits through Amex UK in a few days.
2. Before accepting the voucher, which has likely cut off your ability to obtain a refund, I would have called Amex and asked for the status rather than have simply given up because I heard nothing.
3. For those starting out anew, keep your submission short and only include the few relevant materials which establish your entitlement:
A. E-ticket receipt.
B. Cancellation notice from the carrier.
C. Passenger request for refund.
D/ Denial by carrier (or note that no communication has been received)
Make a specific request under EC 261/2004 for a reimbursement / refund.
Most are seeing the charge suspended and then the credit issued.
As you are located in the UK, you also have access to MCOL and an easy small claims procedure.
Apr 18, 2020, 8:10 am
#19
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: SE England
Programs: AF-KL Platinum, ALL Platinum
Posts: 755
Unfortnately, text does not convey exasperation and a state of futility from having to deal with a bunch of airlines for refunds for cancalled flights. I was saying that no matter how much I told KLM on the phone about EU rules about refunds for cancalled flights they were having none of it - the only words they could hear was them telling me "voucher" and "rebooking". So they were deaf to any laws.
I will stop using my AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold Card. It's practically useless. I was once put through to someone in the Disputes Dept. and she was telling me not to raise a dispute and let the airline sort out a refund. She was not going to help when told KL refuse to refund anyone.
I will stop using my AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold Card. It's practically useless. I was once put through to someone in the Disputes Dept. and she was telling me not to raise a dispute and let the airline sort out a refund. She was not going to help when told KL refuse to refund anyone.
Apr 18, 2020, 11:44 am
#20
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zanzibar
Programs: Flying Blue
Posts: 1,319
Glad you can afford to subsidize the airline industry. But my broke student no longer has her paid summer internship, has to pay rent both here and in Glasgow where she was studying, and therefore needs her $1200 returned. Pretty certain she will not be able to afford to fly for a long time regardless.
Pays not to judge why people ask for refunds.
Pays not to judge why people ask for refunds.
If it is your student help her with cash. The voucher will be refunded when not used within the year. And then she can pay you back.
I did not judge.
I just said that if everyone asks for a refund.. more airlines will go bust then already more then likely.
Which will lead to very high ticket prices in the future.
Last edited by Meneer Guggenheimer; Apr 18, 2020 at 12:27 pm
Apr 18, 2020, 12:26 pm
#21
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Exeter, UK
Programs: BA Gold. Flying Blue Gold. Hilton Gold, Accor Gold, IHG Plat AMB, Radisson Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 220
I will stop using my AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold Card. It's practically useless. I was once put through to someone in the Disputes Dept. and she was telling me not to raise a dispute and let the airline sort out a refund. She was not going to help when told KL refuse to refund anyone.
Apr 18, 2020, 1:33 pm
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Nobody has or needs an excuse to ask for a refund.
It is a legal right, and for the airline a legal obligation. Period. Full stop.
As far as KL/AF is concerned, there's no way the French and Dutch governments will ever let them sink, so those owed money should just go ahead and sue them if a chargeback doesn't work for some reason.
Johan
It is a legal right, and for the airline a legal obligation. Period. Full stop.
As far as KL/AF is concerned, there's no way the French and Dutch governments will ever let them sink, so those owed money should just go ahead and sue them if a chargeback doesn't work for some reason.
Johan
Apr 18, 2020, 3:21 pm
#23
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zanzibar
Programs: Flying Blue
Posts: 1,319
Nobody has or needs an excuse to ask for a refund.
It is a legal right, and for the airline a legal obligation. Period. Full stop.
As far as KL/AF is concerned, there's no way the French and Dutch governments will ever let them sink, so those owed money should just go ahead and sue them if a chargeback doesn't work for some reason.
Johan
It is a legal right, and for the airline a legal obligation. Period. Full stop.
As far as KL/AF is concerned, there's no way the French and Dutch governments will ever let them sink, so those owed money should just go ahead and sue them if a chargeback doesn't work for some reason.
Johan
The fact the voucher is backed by governments is a reason not to do a ‘bankrun’. If you can use the voucher in the future you should opt for that now.
If you request a refund KL should honor that. But if everyone does that... they will probably collapse.
Apr 18, 2020, 5:22 pm
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 15
I feel it is not my duty to save the airlines with my hard earned money. What about the Mom and Pop groceries, or a furniture store or any other business? Why shouldn’t we save them also? If you purchased a certain piece of furniture, paid, and then were told they don’t have it, and won’t have it for another year, do you tell them to hold onto the money? I feel I wouldn’t be as upset if I didn’t purchase business class tickets for my wife and I for this once in a lifetime trip. Customer care should seriously change their name. The Dutch infrastructure minister, Cora van Nieuwenhuizen, says that if the airlines had to give the people their money back, they would be in worse shape (or words to that effect). I still feel that it is not my duty to save the airlines, rather the duty of the government’s if they so choose.
Apr 19, 2020, 12:47 am
#25
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 128
So people still have money to keep the economy going "as usual".
They asked for instance to keep paying for the fitness and childcare even if those are closed and you can't use the service.
There are vouchers you can buy from restaurants, which are now closed to trade for a metal when they can open again.
You might not agree with this policy, but it does fit with the airline voucher idea and shows they are not an exception in this.
Apr 19, 2020, 1:05 am
#27
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: mostly not far from AMS, otherwise NUE
Programs: FB Silver, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,381
There are vouchers you can buy from restaurants, which are now closed to trade for a metal when they can open again.
My gripe with the whole situation is the attitude of KLM as evidenced by the spokesperson quoted in https://www.upinthesky.nl/2020/04/15...oronavoucher/:
KLM erkent dat het uitkeren van een voucher in plaats van cash in strijd is met de Europese regelgeving. “Deze handelingswijze is echter niet in lijn met Verordening (EG) Nr. 261/2004”, zegt de maatschappij tegenover Up. “Inmiddels zijn de overheden van 9 Europese landen – waaronder Nederland – in gesprek met de Europese Commissie om toe te staan een beperkte termijn niet te handhaven. KLM voldoet aan alle genoemde voorwaarden om af te zien van handhaving.
Translation: “KLM recognize vouchers instead of cash are in violation EU regulations, but because governments in 9 countries (including the Netherlands) are talking to the EU commission to suspend pursuing airlines for a limited time, and KLM meets all requirements not to be pursued. “
This is the fault of the Dutch government for instructing the local body, ILT, not to enforce EU rules.
De maatschappij blijft bij het standpunt de voucher een eerlijke oplossing te vinden. De afgelopen weken zijn er talloze vluchten geannuleerd vanwege de uitbraak van het coronavirus. Binnen de uitzonderlijke omstandigheden vindt KLM dan ook dat de voucher een redelijk evenwicht vormt tussen ‘de bescherming van de rechten van passagiers en de realiteit waarin alle luchtvaartmaatschappijen nu moeten opereren.’
“Ons doel is niet om onze passagiers hun rechten te ontnemen. Wanneer vluchten echter moeten worden geannuleerd vanwege de wereldwijde mondiale sluitingen van de grenzen en beperkingen op het vrije verkeer waardoor passagiers hun vertrekluchthavens niet kunnen bereiken, stelt de uitgifte van deze vouchers ons in staat passagiers meer flexibiliteit en keuze te bieden tijdens een periode van onzekerheid
“Ons doel is niet om onze passagiers hun rechten te ontnemen. Wanneer vluchten echter moeten worden geannuleerd vanwege de wereldwijde mondiale sluitingen van de grenzen en beperkingen op het vrije verkeer waardoor passagiers hun vertrekluchthavens niet kunnen bereiken, stelt de uitgifte van deze vouchers ons in staat passagiers meer flexibiliteit en keuze te bieden tijdens een periode van onzekerheid
I don’t know about KLM, but cash gives me a lot more flexibility and choice to buy whatever I want than a voucher from KLM that may or may not turn into cash in a year’s time.
For me this leaves a huge dent in my opinion of KLM that I’ve built over the last 10 years or so. I already got my money back via a chargeback via AMEX, but in future you can bet that I’ll pursue any EU261 claim to the fullest extent when in the past I would have perhaps been more lenient, and of course I will much more often consider other options than KLM. If they think they can f us, I will do my part to f them back. Pardon my Dutch.
Apr 19, 2020, 10:15 am
#29
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,034
I really wonder if all y'all think getting your cash refund from a bankrupted company would be easier than dealing with a voucher.
cause maybe you don't get it, but they don't issue vouchers just so they can mess with their customers. They sort of issue vouchers so they can keep existing...
"oh, but the governments would just bail them out". Guess what. Government can just as well decide to let KLM fail, they've had a 100 year run. And in the summer there would be Rijksluchtvaartsmaatschapij with their iconing orange airplanes instead.
Your claims against KLM? Well sure, they are court accepted. You can expect your 1 euro per 1000 euro claim as soon as the airlines collection of huisjes is auctioned off.
cause maybe you don't get it, but they don't issue vouchers just so they can mess with their customers. They sort of issue vouchers so they can keep existing...
"oh, but the governments would just bail them out". Guess what. Government can just as well decide to let KLM fail, they've had a 100 year run. And in the summer there would be Rijksluchtvaartsmaatschapij with their iconing orange airplanes instead.
Your claims against KLM? Well sure, they are court accepted. You can expect your 1 euro per 1000 euro claim as soon as the airlines collection of huisjes is auctioned off.