Meneer Guggenheimer

In the quality paper ‘telegraaf’, there is an article about KLM boss who apparently has said that they are also talking to Airbus about the replacements for the NGs. Interesting... thoughts?

Gajan

A friend is a captain on the B737 and I remember asking him this a while ago. At that time, he said that though switching seems nice, there are some practical issues during transition phase, such as:

- if one flight is operated by a B737 and the next by an A32X, you need to make sure that the correct flight crew are at location, also in case of irrops,
- the loading of luggage on the B737 is different to on the A32X, so airport operations need to adjusted
- etc

Not sure how the Max issues have impacted the medium haul fleet choice though.

KLflyerRalph

Saying in the media you are interested in the competitor is all part of airline negotiation tactics.

Xandrios

KLM is die-hard Boeing. Even the recent 'swap' of B787's from AF against KLM's A350's (on order) proves that. No way they will be including A320s in their long haul fleet. Unfortunately I might add.

NickB

In Europe, B737s are very popular with the LCCs but less so with full service carriers. AFAIK, KL and SK are the only two major B737s users among full service European carriers. I would expect that Boeing would not want to lose either and would make them rather good offers to keep them in the B737 stable.

irishguy28

A320: 30 jaar succes - behalve in Nederland

LiHS

KL is indeed pretty much the last European legacy to the A320 party, assuming they'll ever actually join it - the much smaller Polish LOT is the only other with a 737-based fleet. SK is aggressively replacing their entire 737NG fleet with A320neo and plan to have no Boeings (of any family) within 3 years. And even the LCCs are of mixed opinion: of the four largest standalone European LCCs, Easyjet and Wizzair have more A320s between them than Ryanair and Norwegian have 737s.

johan rebel

Really?

Easyjet says on it website that it has 318 Airbuses, Wizzair claims 83.

Ryanair says it operates "over 450" 737-800s, Norwegian 118.

I figure that Boeing has it, by a wide margin.

Johan

LiHS

You're correct. At least more correct than I was. Though not all of the company numbers are current/reflect the subsidiary situation. When I first looked at it I just looked at their wikipedia pages, some of which also subsume subsidiaries into the fleet numbers and some don't. I also completely forgot about Malta Air in the process.

However, from airfleets.net data, where all the subsidiaries are separated out and there's no double counting, the numbers are as follows:

• B737s with Ryanair + R.Sun + R. UK: (340+32+1) = 373
• B737s with Malta Air [of Ryanair]: 73
• B737s with Norwegian (Shuttle + International + Sweden) (25+37+43) = 105
• A320s with Wizzair + W.UK: (110 + 10) = 120
• A320s with Easyjet + E.Europe + E.Switzerland: (163+139+30) = 332
• A320s with Laudamotion [of Ryanair]: 24
• A320s with Norwegian Air Shuttle: 2

That makes for a grand total of 551 B737 and 478 A320-family aircraft between the four airlines and their subsidiaries, meaning their collective narrowbody fleets are about 53.5% B737.

elpi

Don't forget about duty that EU will leave at the end of year on Boeing.

Sheikh Yerbooty

Boeing already lost SK, as they went with the neo rather than MAX. I'm sure Boeing will try their best keeping KL and LOT in the stable, but they're pushing an inferior product with a horrible reputation, which is looking at a very rough road ahead. Not the safest of choices these days.

Never listen to what a Captain has to say when it comes to fleet decisions.

- That will only happen in AMS, in the case of KL. It's not as if their crews will be having a change of aircraft in, say, OSL.
- The A32x series can be either loose loaded or containerised. If an airline chose the former option, there's no real difference. If the latter option is chosen, one difference is that high-loaders rather than belt-loaders are used, the other difference is you can turn the aircraft with 1 less ground-staff member in the same time period if using containers. But it doesn't alter "airport operations" as such, it's just using different GSE.

The biggest issues when changing aircraft types is training of aircrew and maintenance staff; ground operations is but a minor after thought.

Meneer Guggenheimer

KL has a few things they must have on their minds.

- they are openly not happy with the 787-10 from Charleston. They where among the airlines complaining about.

- they have been delaying their decision for years. The Max issue must make it more
difficult for them to make the decision to stick to the 737.

- the Canadian in Paris wants a less different cockpits, it could also be an bargain for KL in dealing with mister Ben.

- Airbus would not miss an opportunity to bag KL as a customer. Even though the back log is long. It probably is easier to get a commitment on delivery of a 320 then 737..

- the ages of the 737 fleet varies so switching to 320 with the knowledge of KL concerning fleet management, that can be done as efficient as possible should and should actually favour the transistion.

- how much does it cost to have your crew switch from 737 to 320. We always think it is expensive but perhaps it is not as as expensive as we tend to believe.

- how big is the mess and how long will it take Boeing to delivery 737 max to KL. We can only guess when they will be operated again. We only know that reintroduction is delayed after delay.

- And how do we think of flying on a 737 max. I do not know if I would.

Note. I almost never fly KL 737s. I am normally always on 190/175 for my domestic KL flights in the United States of Europe.

Zembla

Just a few thoughts to add to the equation. I’m not sure there are a whole lot of European operators that moved from A320 to 737, but many did it the other way round and never looked back. Also, I doubt that KL, just like any airline, is enthousiastic about the 737 Max at this moment.

irishguy28

You really like KL 737s? Or are you a KL 737-rated pilot?

Wouldn't it be great if KL could operate domestic flights - in the US!!

Meneer Guggenheimer

I meant ‘never really fly’