Globalist

These are horrible experiences and reading other boards on Flyertalk, it seems to happen regularly with various airlines.

The result is, you don't have a valid ticket until the ticket is re-issued, in your case you also mentioned that payment was also not taken which makes the case even weaker.
The airline will claim they owe you nothing, and experience shows they will get away with it even if you have a confirmation email.

My opinion is that it is a ridiculous notion that because of failure on the airline side the customer is put in this position but there we are.The fact that the onus is on the passenger to check if you have a ticket number is only known by people who have been in this situation before or have read about it. I always do a search on checkmytrip on every booking to ensure I have a ticket nr issued especially in the case of changes to an existing booking.

Globalist

jochen_vdk

I entered my credit card details on the KLM website, the transaction was confirmed, again on the KLM website, and I received the confirmation e-mail, with the confirmation of the credit card payment. Have done this hundreds of times before, without any problem. But this time my card has never been debited so no, I did not pay for the initial change. The thing is, I can not check my credit card transactions online in real-time, there is always a delay, so I never double check if my credit card has actually been debited if the airline confirms it has been the case.

jochen_vdk

Indeed, that was the answer of KLM. But how do you know if the ticket has been re-issued or not? It is an electronic ticket, so you do not get a paper of some kind. And KLM does not send the e-tickets out by e-mail either. So (as a standard customer that does not know the ticket number is supposed to change) you have no way to know whether or not the ticket has been re-issued unless you call them and ask explicitly. But who does that, if you receive rebooking confirmation and you see a booking code and ticket number?

Again, I had a ticket number, booking code and my flights showed correctly in the booking. A search on checkmytrip would not have shown any signals there was something wrong.

I am also curious how this looks from a legal perspective. Maybe indeed, KLM can not be blamed for refusing me on a flight for which I did not have a ticket. But can they be held responsible for their ticketing mistake, and be held responsible for the consequences of refusing to correct their mistake?

atflyer

I think with that email you have more than enough basis to complain to KLM at nauseam. You have a confirmation email with cc payment, period. You should be able to trust that. Their IT system messed up. If for some reason the cc is not debited after all and the ticket cancelled, you should get a message.

NickB

Unless there was a clear and explicit disclaimer in the confirmation e-mail stating that the change would not be confirmed until issuance of a new e-ticket (and even then, there might still be issues), this looks to me suspiciously like a breach of contract. If so, given that KLM refused to perform the contract, you could legitimately seek performance by another airline at KLM's costs, viz. seek reimbursement of the new ticket that you had to buy on another airline to get to your destination as well as any other costs that might flow from KLM's refusal to carry you.

As to whether you can also claim denial of boarding compensation under Reg 261/2004, as suggested by warakorn, this is a little trickier and depends on how one interprets the regulation. On balance, I would probably agree that denied boarding is due but it is not an open-and-shut-book case situation, I would have thought.

Sjondorn

Failed payments are indeed an issue, because in some other cases (like here in US), the credit card payment can be delayed if the bank wants additional confirmation (i.e. they will not clear the payment but not reject it outright). So sometimes the airline doesn't know if the payment will clear or not :/

Realistically, this is a hard to tell case IMO, and if KLM is not cooperative I fear you'll need a law firm to get a case going.

NickB

But they DO know that the payment has not cleared yet and, therefore, that a confirmation email should not be fired until payment is confirmed.

pjhartog

When I book via the KLM website I ALWAYS get a separate email with a confirmation and 'invoice' stating the payment took place via CC or whatever, and - usually right then as well - an email with the E-Ticket. If there is a change, paid or not, same thing - a confirmation mail PLUS an email with the revised E-Ticket.

And when more pax are involved, those mails with E-Tickets are also multiple, one E-Ticket per email per pax...

I agree that KLM should still be responsible for this but I cannot imagine that the procedure above is not the same for all and therefore a missing E-Ticket (revised or new) can be an indication of trouble and would cause me to call KLM...

Good luck in your discussions and please keep us posted

bodory

Thanks.

Is there any reason you might know that prevented your card to be charged?

If KLM failed to effectively charge the card while not informing you about that, then I concur with others in saying that you have a strong case.

jochen_vdk

jochen_vdk

atflyer

Hi all, I have just experienced a similar situation. In my case payment for a booking of an EC seat did not come through as I found out today checking my AMEX account, despite having received a confirmation by email in part scanned below (the rest gives my seat number & payment details). This is much less serious as a rebooking as in the case of the OP, but it concerns the very same glitch - you get confirmation of KLM, the payment somehow does not get through, and KLM cancels your order (and with that in the case of the OP, the ticket - in my case I probably still can find a regular economy seat). I'd say to the OP - go for them. This simply must not be able to happen. I filed a complaint to KLM with the text below.


Dear KLM, I booked for my flight XXXXX AMS-LYS on YY October an EC seat, 7F, 6 Euro directly by myself. I have a confirmation email this, see attachment. The travel agent booking my original ticket then sent me an invoice for this - since they were informed by KLM that my seat was not paid. I could not find indeed the payment on my Amex. This is stunning. How can you sent me a confirmation that I paid, while apparently payment went wrong???? This is a major glitch in your reservation system. On Flyertalk I noted much worse implications for people who saw whole tickets cancelled in this situation while they received a confirmation from KLM. I asked KLM via Messenger to confirm I still have my 7F seat, inform me what happened, and if I have to pay still how to do this.

I think however this is such a serious situation that I want to file a formal complaint. It cannot be that you as KLM client get an email confirmation that you have booked your additional options, and that later - without any notice of this! - KLM decides or finds things are not paid. In my case my main risk is loosing a EC seat. But if you buy an upgrade or change your travel date, this glitch can lead to a cancellation of ticket without that the client notices. You cannot have your clients ending up in such situations. This seems a major glitch in your systems, and you must improve on this. Kind regards, [ATFlyer]

atflyer

PS note that the message even reads 'Geachte passagier, de betaling van uw extra optie(s) is geslaagd!' which literally translates to 'Dear passenger, the payment of your extra options has succeeded!'. If you sent such messages, clients should be able to trust that.

pjhartog

I am sorry - I should have checked better - the mail with a changed ticket only is sent to me when it concerns an award ticket. For normally paid tickets, indeed I do not get a new e-ticket, only a confirmation that the reservation was changed....

It should indeed be a strong case - go for it !

jochen_vdk

Just a short update - on the phone they insist they have done nothing wrong, I can't pull another type of answer out of them, no matter to whom I am talking. My complaint by e-mail is being ignored.
I am handing over the file to our company's legal department so that they can take the necessary steps. After all, much of the lost money was the company's. I am very curious about the outcome!