Mess in AMS today - up to March 2022

Old Jan 22, 2019, 8:57 am
  #316  
 
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Originally Posted by Romanianflyer
Quite a bit of snow at CDG and low visibility. I just landed on time - but already on one of the access roads I saw two lorries having had an accident/slipped off the road.
Not to get too far off-topic, but I confirm, departures at CDG are quite messy today, my flight simply disappeared from the departure board, the lounge dragon said they "can confirm the plane didn't leave" but have "no information on its departure". Later they estimated two hours delay, then three, and it looks like we'll be departing two hours late. Many other flights are canceled or heavily delayed due to "difficulties in finding a slot" according to the PSL.


CDG, 22 Jan 12.30

CDG, 22 Jan 16.30
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Old Jan 22, 2019, 9:09 am
  #317  
 
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Originally Posted by AlvinMaker
Not to get too far off-topic, but I confirm, departures at CDG are quite messy today, my flight simply disappeared from the departure board, the lounge dragon said they "can confirm the plane didn't leave" but have "no information on its departure". Later they estimated two hours delay, then three, and it looks like we'll be departing two hours late. Many other flights are canceled or heavily delayed due to "difficulties in finding a slot" according to the PSL.
Yes I had the same with my Finnair arrival about 10 minutes late. Apparently there wasn't a suitable slot ready at 2D Schengen so we parked at an air bridge further down 2D where normally extra-Schengen flights depart. We could disembark by air bridge but were led immediately by stairs down to a bus to do a 20 minute tour around some roundabouts of CDG only to be... dropped off at an air bridge or two further at 2D where the plane arrived! Talk about utter CDG crap and inexplicable transits.

I also found it weird that in the end we still had to pass through passport control - unless I might have missed something and France has recently temporarily introduced border checks again.

At least all other flights for the evening here out of terminal 2E (L gates) seem to depart on time. I might complain about AMS operations a lot, but CDG can be a whole mess on its own! (although a complimentary Clarins facial massage, private sauna, and a glass of Charles Heidsieck or two at the AF lounge makes you forget about it all



Note: Dutchies will understand the bit of sarcasm in above picture with the newspaper headline
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Old Jan 22, 2019, 11:26 am
  #318  
 
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I think being able to enjoy 2E-L lounge is worth a bit of a schedule disturbance having been there when it was even only partially open.

I hope my flight in two weeks or so won't have this issue. 2F lounges are nowhere near as nice a place to be.

As for NS - I don't know how bad the situation got around midday - at one point, the NS website just told me route planner can not be used due to weather circumstances - but by 5 (as well as in the morning), the only major effect seemed to have been fuller trains due to partial cancellation, even though to their credit they were pretty much all 10-12 cars long. Delays were minimal, mostly attributable to longer times in the stations due to masses of people getting in and out. Come to think of it, that might have been why I've seen cancelled sprinters with an extra train just couple of minutes later - could have just been that extra padding in schedule made to show up in planners.

Oh, and also I just missed my chance to take a peek at snow-covered Schiphol, I arrived about 15 minutes after terrace closure :/
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Old Jan 22, 2019, 4:28 pm
  #319  
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Bizarre!

The aircraft scheduled to operate my flight from AMS this afternoon arrived at the gate 21 minutes late. As the scheduled turnaround time was an ample 65 minutes, there was enough slack to make up for the time lost. Sure enough, all pax were on board and the door closed before our STD.

Looking out the window, I was relieved to see that a deicing truck had already taken up position at our starboard wingtip. A second truck and the deicing supervisor were parked at the next gate, where a flight was also boarding.

For some minutes nothing happened, then our truck backed away and joined the other one. At that moment the captain appeared in the aisle and announced that:

- we would have to be deiced.

- that this would take place at the central deicing facility.

- that there was a queue.

- that we would have to wait almost two hours before we could push back.

- that it would then take another half hour or so before we could take off.

- that he would be coming down the aisle to answer questions.

I had several of those:

Q: Why had the deicing truck left us?

A: It had been decided that all KL aircraft would use the central deicing facility.

Q: Why?

A: Deicing at the gate is bad for the environment, as the runoff cannot be properly dealt with.

Q: Were we going to taxi all the way around the terminal, across the A4 freeway to the J-apron to get deiced, and then all the way back again to one of the two departure runways, 18L or 24?

A: Yes.

The captain then turned to speak to the pax across the aisle, and I turned to look out the window. To my utter amazement, the KL 738 at the next gate was being deiced!

This plane got the full treatment. First the entire fuselage from nose to tail was washed down with copious amounts of a salmon-pink liquid. Then the wings as well as the horizontal and vertical stabilizers were given the same treatment. Finally, all the flight control surfaces were doused with a second, green-tinted liquid. I drew the captain's attention to this spectacle, which contradicted everything I had just been told. He professed his surprise, and had no explanation.

Having walked up and down the aisle, the captain retreated to the cockpit, and the FAs served us drinks and almonds.

And then we waited.

In the meantime, the aircraft at the next gate pushed back and taxied to the departure runway. The deicing trucks parked at the gate and the crews took a break. While they were munching on their snacks, any number of freshly deiced KL aircraft taxied past to the runway, their vertical stabilizers displaying a light-green sheen.

After ten minutes or so, snack break over, one of the deicing trucks suddenly drove up and parked right at the nose of our aircraft, followed by the deicing supervisor. The latter got out and plugged into the aircraft comms. The second truck now also pitched up and parked outside my window. About five minutes of feverish consultation now followed. The crews were constantly on the radio and their cell phones, and the two in the truck outside my window were engaged in an animated discussion, repeatedly pointing at various parts of the plane.

Then, all of a sudden, the purser announced that we would be deiced here and now, and push back in ten minutes.

What followed was a very perfunctory treatment, at least when compared to the aircraft that had just been deiced at the adjacent gate. Our fuselage was not washed down at all. Only the wings and stabilizers were sprayed, and only once, with the salmon-pink liquid. That done, we pushed back 44 minutes late, and took off 12 minutes later.

Last week I departed from CPH. We pushed back, taxied two minutes to a deicing station, where the waiting time was zero. Soon enough we were on our way to the runway, and in the air a few minutes later.

The conclusion?

Deicing at AMS sucks bigtime!

Johan
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Old Jan 22, 2019, 6:26 pm
  #320  
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Having now checked the flights with STDs 30 minutes either side of mine, I realize that my flight was one of the least unfortunate ones.

For the aircraft that were sent to the J-apron for deicing, the time from pushback to take off was between 1h and 1h20. Many of these sat at the gate for 2 or even 2 hours first.

The aircraft that were deiced at the gate took off within 10 or 12 minutes of pushback, but most waited at the gate far longer than we did. Several hours or even longer in many cases. A flight originally scheduled to depart 5 minutes before mine remained at gate for over three hours. By that time we had already landed at CPH.

There was very little snow, the runways were in excellent condition, so the chaos was purely caused by the totally incompentent and disorganized deicing procedures and facilities.

Johan
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 7:37 am
  #321  
 
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Originally Posted by johan rebel
The aircraft scheduled to operate my flight from AMS this afternoon arrived at the gate 21 minutes late. As the scheduled turnaround time was an ample 65 minutes, there was enough slack to make up for the time lost. Sure enough, all pax were on board and the door closed before our STD.

Looking out the window, I was relieved to see that a deicing truck had already taken up position at our starboard wingtip. A second truck and the deicing supervisor were parked at the next gate, where a flight was also boarding.

For some minutes nothing happened, then our truck backed away and joined the other one. At that moment the captain appeared in the aisle and announced that:

- we would have to be deiced.

- that this would take place at the central deicing facility.

- that there was a queue.

- that we would have to wait almost two hours before we could push back.

- that it would then take another half hour or so before we could take off.

- that he would be coming down the aisle to answer questions.

I had several of those:

Q: Why had the deicing truck left us?

A: It had been decided that all KL aircraft would use the central deicing facility.

Q: Why?

A: Deicing at the gate is bad for the environment, as the runoff cannot be properly dealt with.

Q: Were we going to taxi all the way around the terminal, across the A4 freeway to the J-apron to get deiced, and then all the way back again to one of the two departure runways, 18L or 24?

A: Yes.

The captain then turned to speak to the pax across the aisle, and I turned to look out the window. To my utter amazement, the KL 738 at the next gate was being deiced!

This plane got the full treatment. First the entire fuselage from nose to tail was washed down with copious amounts of a salmon-pink liquid. Then the wings as well as the horizontal and vertical stabilizers were given the same treatment. Finally, all the flight control surfaces were doused with a second, green-tinted liquid. I drew the captain's attention to this spectacle, which contradicted everything I had just been told. He professed his surprise, and had no explanation.

Having walked up and down the aisle, the captain retreated to the cockpit, and the FAs served us drinks and almonds.

And then we waited.

In the meantime, the aircraft at the next gate pushed back and taxied to the departure runway. The deicing trucks parked at the gate and the crews took a break. While they were munching on their snacks, any number of freshly deiced KL aircraft taxied past to the runway, their vertical stabilizers displaying a light-green sheen.

After ten minutes or so, snack break over, one of the deicing trucks suddenly drove up and parked right at the nose of our aircraft, followed by the deicing supervisor. The latter got out and plugged into the aircraft comms. The second truck now also pitched up and parked outside my window. About five minutes of feverish consultation now followed. The crews were constantly on the radio and their cell phones, and the two in the truck outside my window were engaged in an animated discussion, repeatedly pointing at various parts of the plane.

Then, all of a sudden, the purser announced that we would be deiced here and now, and push back in ten minutes.

What followed was a very perfunctory treatment, at least when compared to the aircraft that had just been deiced at the adjacent gate. Our fuselage was not washed down at all. Only the wings and stabilizers were sprayed, and only once, with the salmon-pink liquid. That done, we pushed back 44 minutes late, and took off 12 minutes later.

Last week I departed from CPH. We pushed back, taxied two minutes to a deicing station, where the waiting time was zero. Soon enough we were on our way to the runway, and in the air a few minutes later.

The conclusion?

Deicing at AMS sucks bigtime!

Johan
That's quite some story indeed!

I had a slightly similar experience yesterday at CDG with a late arrival of my plane at the gate and both pilots and FAs scrambling to get it ready as soon as possible. Weirdly, despite no visible snow or ice to be seen on the aeroplane, we headed towards a central de-icing station first where we waited for 10, 15 minutes only to... leave immediately again for the runway after what I think was just a check and de-icing people telling nothing was needed. Of course, I'm not in the position to second guess the decision to head there in the first place. After all, it's the captain's judgement and call and he is in charge of the safety of us all on board so if he deemed a check necessary I'm absolutely fine with it. But it made me thinking as well about differences between airports and pilots.

I once heard a Norwegian pilot talk about the differences between those who work from bases far north with frequent snowfall (Nordics, Canada etc) and those in the south (Italy, Florida etc.). Nordic pilots just only care about the most essential bit of de-icing (tail and wings) while southern captains demand their plane to be de-iced even if there is only a tiny layer of snowfall (and no ice) on it which would easily blow off from the fuselage when accelerating at the runway. And while the Northern captains are fine with only the essential de-icing, their southern colleagues demand the entire fuselage to be de-iced even when it's not technically necessary. I've even been on planes taking off with seemingly big layers of snow (certainly more than the 3 centimetres which fell in the Netherlands!) on their wings - which were cleared off as soon as the plane hit the runway and took off because of the winds.

Quite interesting to hear and I wonder how this would differentiate as well between airlines such as KLM and airports and their de-icing staff like AMS at one hand, and AY/HEL or SAS/ARN on the other hand.
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Old Jan 25, 2019, 5:24 am
  #322  
 
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I had to be in Stockholm flying 22 January and warned the members of the panel I was supposed to be in as follows: The Netherlands is a funny country when it comes down to weather and airports. There are a few snowflakes predicted for tomorrow, and KLM is bracing itself for chaos. Having worked in Trondheim part time I know by experience that you can run airports under heavy winter conditions without disruptions, but apparently Schiphol hasn’t learned a lot yet from its Scandinavian neighbors (or finds the investment for preparing for such eventualities too expensive). Same with our railway system btw.

In the end it appeared Dutch railways had cut service in half, but anticipating that I was timely at the airport; flight was first 30 min delayed, then we had de-icing at the gate (we were told we were lucky since indeed being deiced at another platform would have delayed 1-2 hours) and the overall delay was 1 hour. Even though most of us here are armchair generals/non specialists I'd side with those who suggest this is incompetence or unwillingness to prepare properly for such situations. Snow levels were 1 cm or so...
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Old Jan 25, 2019, 12:33 pm
  #323  
 
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You are comparing Trondheim, a city that lies on the same latitude as Iceland and Greenland, with Amsterdam?
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Old Jan 25, 2019, 3:48 pm
  #324  
 
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There's dozens of airports in Europe and worldwide that deal with snow and do it very well... It can be done.

But, realistically... it snows in the Netherlands like twice a year. Do you really think it'd be worth to invest in winter operations technology, for that one week of usage?
And are you prepared to pay for it? Nobody else will - Schiphol fees would have to go up and therefore ticket prices would have to go up.
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Old Jan 26, 2019, 8:38 am
  #325  
 
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Are the Dutch becoming British?
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Old Jan 26, 2019, 12:47 pm
  #326  
 
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
There's dozens of airports in Europe and worldwide that deal with snow and do it very well... It can be done.

But, realistically... it snows in the Netherlands like twice a year. Do you really think it'd be worth to invest in winter operations technology, for that one week of usage?
And are you prepared to pay for it? Nobody else will - Schiphol fees would have to go up and therefore ticket prices would have to go up.
.....Many flights with *A via Munich, Vienna, Zurich to Asia are very competetively priced compared to Skyteam, Finnair via Helsinki ditto. All via airports that have to be well prepared for snow. Schiphol has 70 Mio passengers and 50cts per person gives you 35 Million to play with.....of course I have no clue how expensive or cheap good winter preps could be, but my gut feeling is Schiphol prefers to keep the Millions for itself. Another option is a lack of organisational skills in this field (other threads have these frequent complaints on the security system where far more handluggage is sent to secondary and far more passengers need a manual check as in any other airport.....a situation existing for years now).
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Old Jan 26, 2019, 2:03 pm
  #327  
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KLM De-Icing / Anti-Icing Services

My favorite sentence by far is the very last one:

"Leave it to the professionals!"

Johan
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Old Jan 26, 2019, 7:14 pm
  #328  
 
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Originally Posted by johan rebel
KLM De-Icing / Anti-Icing Services

My favorite sentence by far is the very last one:

"Leave it to the professionals!"

Johan
Ah, I think I see the problem now.

Schiphol wants to leave it to professionals in case of adverse weather conditions, but the professionals cannot reach Schiphol because all the flights from Scandinavia end up cancelled because of the adverse weather conditions!
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Old Jan 28, 2019, 12:51 pm
  #329  
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Any risk of weather chaos this week? Bad weather forecast for the UK, which will presumably blow over to the Netherlands. On Friday and Sunday I have a day of travel via AMS.
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Old Jan 28, 2019, 1:14 pm
  #330  
 
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Originally Posted by Concerto
Any risk of weather chaos this week? Bad weather forecast for the UK, which will presumably blow over to the Netherlands. On Friday and Sunday I have a day of travel via AMS.
So far so good, with possibility of morning fog on Friday.
Similar on Saturday, wonder how will it end up. I'm flying off in the morning via CDG, hope for smooth sailing. Or at worst, a change to a direct flight
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