EU Compensation for KLM Cancelled Flight
Apr 28, 2014, 12:09 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
EU Compensation for KLM Cancelled Flight
I am posting here rather than the KLM forum, as I want the experiences of US based passengers.
My wife was on a KLM flight that was cancelled today.
(While not relevant to my inquiry - a total mess at FLR. Everyone had to get their luggage back and then go to the check-in counter to be re-routed. No employees at check-in counter for at least 20 minutes after she arrived. Then, even though she was in the Sky Priority line, a half hour went by where they took no one from the Sky Priority line, even though they took many from the regular line. I called KLM in Amsterdam for her and got her re-routed on Swiss before she was served at FLR. She had called KLM in Amsterdam while waiting for her luggage and they had refused to help her, I used the old Flyertalk "call again" theory.)
But, I digress. The question - anyone have any experience dealing with KLM in the US to get EU compensation where a flight cancellation based on mechanical problems caused a delay of more than 3 hours? Apparently many airlines claim that mechanical problems come within the "extraordinary circumstances" exemption to the compensation rule - even though the courts seem to hold that a mechanical delay is not an "extraordinary circumstance."
My wife was on a KLM flight that was cancelled today.
(While not relevant to my inquiry - a total mess at FLR. Everyone had to get their luggage back and then go to the check-in counter to be re-routed. No employees at check-in counter for at least 20 minutes after she arrived. Then, even though she was in the Sky Priority line, a half hour went by where they took no one from the Sky Priority line, even though they took many from the regular line. I called KLM in Amsterdam for her and got her re-routed on Swiss before she was served at FLR. She had called KLM in Amsterdam while waiting for her luggage and they had refused to help her, I used the old Flyertalk "call again" theory.)
But, I digress. The question - anyone have any experience dealing with KLM in the US to get EU compensation where a flight cancellation based on mechanical problems caused a delay of more than 3 hours? Apparently many airlines claim that mechanical problems come within the "extraordinary circumstances" exemption to the compensation rule - even though the courts seem to hold that a mechanical delay is not an "extraordinary circumstance."
Apr 28, 2014, 12:36 pm
#2
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
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Thread Alert
This topic pertains to KLM Royal Dutch Airlines and not Delta Air Lines, which is why the new home for this discussion is the KLM Flying Dutchman forum.
Regards,
Canarsie
Co-Moderator, Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles forum
Regards,
Canarsie
Co-Moderator, Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles forum
Apr 28, 2014, 12:36 pm
#3
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I'm currently in the middle of a dispute with Delta over EC compensation for a cancelled DL-operated flight ex-BCN requiring me to overnight in Europe, where they are claiming "extraordinary circumstances" occurred (incorrectly, in my opinion). I was talking in circles with the Delta rep who avoided responding in any detail about their "extraordinary circumstances" assertion, so I ended up escalating to the Spanish regulatory authorities a week or two ago and am waiting to hear back.
Your best bet is to start by contacting KLM customer service (which, because you are in the US, will likely be handled by Delta). Succinctly note in your request that you are requesting flight cancellation compensation. I'd also explicitly reference the Sturgeon v. Condor decision where EC courts held that technical faults in an aircraft do not qualify as 'extraordinary circumstances' in your message.
Something like: (substitute EUR600 for the amount you believe is due based on how long your arrival at final destination was delayed)
"I am writing to request cancellation compensation of EUR600 under EC Regulation 261/2004 as I was delayed more than 12 hours arriving at my final destination. I was informed at the airport that the cancellation of my original flight was due to mechanical failure. As I'm sure you're aware, EC courts held in the Sturgeon v. Condor case that mechanical failure does not qualify as an 'extraordinary circumstance', and therefore I believe compensation is due for this flight."
They may try claiming the flight wasn't technically 'cancelled', but delayed by many hours (a tactic Delta is using in my case despite the flight being announced as cancelled at the airport and the flight being operated as a different flight number on the following day). If that happens, make sure to reply that Sturgeon v. Condor also held that a delay longer than three hours is now equivalent to a cancellation for the purposes of compensation, making that distinction irrelevant.
There's basically no downside for an airline denying a claim on first request, so make sure to set your expectations accordingly for a long process. You will likely have to send a complaint to the enforcement body in Italy if you are denied by KLM on first request; if so, it will be helpful to have a full transcript of all of your communications handy.
If you aren't successful with the national enforcement body (where I understand the bulk of these complaints are resolved), the legal system is still available to you. Hopefully neither of our cases comes to that point, but if so, I am very glad my group legal insurance coverage is provided by a company based in the EU and, conveniently, includes international consumer protection assistance...
Your best bet is to start by contacting KLM customer service (which, because you are in the US, will likely be handled by Delta). Succinctly note in your request that you are requesting flight cancellation compensation. I'd also explicitly reference the Sturgeon v. Condor decision where EC courts held that technical faults in an aircraft do not qualify as 'extraordinary circumstances' in your message.
Something like: (substitute EUR600 for the amount you believe is due based on how long your arrival at final destination was delayed)
"I am writing to request cancellation compensation of EUR600 under EC Regulation 261/2004 as I was delayed more than 12 hours arriving at my final destination. I was informed at the airport that the cancellation of my original flight was due to mechanical failure. As I'm sure you're aware, EC courts held in the Sturgeon v. Condor case that mechanical failure does not qualify as an 'extraordinary circumstance', and therefore I believe compensation is due for this flight."
They may try claiming the flight wasn't technically 'cancelled', but delayed by many hours (a tactic Delta is using in my case despite the flight being announced as cancelled at the airport and the flight being operated as a different flight number on the following day). If that happens, make sure to reply that Sturgeon v. Condor also held that a delay longer than three hours is now equivalent to a cancellation for the purposes of compensation, making that distinction irrelevant.
There's basically no downside for an airline denying a claim on first request, so make sure to set your expectations accordingly for a long process. You will likely have to send a complaint to the enforcement body in Italy if you are denied by KLM on first request; if so, it will be helpful to have a full transcript of all of your communications handy.
If you aren't successful with the national enforcement body (where I understand the bulk of these complaints are resolved), the legal system is still available to you. Hopefully neither of our cases comes to that point, but if so, I am very glad my group legal insurance coverage is provided by a company based in the EU and, conveniently, includes international consumer protection assistance...
Apr 28, 2014, 12:37 pm
#4
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Also, Canarsie, I'm not sure this thread should have been moved... As far as I know, Delta handles customer service for KLM in the United States as part of the TATL joint venture, so Delta's policies and procedures are likely to be the ones that apply in this situation...
Apr 28, 2014, 12:55 pm
#5
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The EU reg applies to the operating carrier, not the customer service contractor, marketing carrier, or ticketing party.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...g_2004_261.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...g_2004_261.pdf
Apr 28, 2014, 1:02 pm
#6
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OP can do all of this directly from the KL website. As the operating carrier, if any compensation is due under EC 261/2004, it is from KL.
As others note, unless OP is prepared to fight this, likely using one of the services which take a % of the cut, KL will simply deny responsibility and not pay. But, step one is to simply submit the information requested.
As others note, unless OP is prepared to fight this, likely using one of the services which take a % of the cut, KL will simply deny responsibility and not pay. But, step one is to simply submit the information requested.
Apr 28, 2014, 1:04 pm
#7
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
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...if the moderators of the KLM Flying Dutchman forum deem that this discussion is more suitable for the Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles forum, they can choose to move it and it will be welcomed back.
In the meantime, there is a “re-direct” from the Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles forum in place to this discussion.
Thank you, BenA.
Regards,
Canarsie
Apr 28, 2014, 1:05 pm
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
The flight was booked on the US KLM.com site, in the hopes of making it easier to obtain EC seats.
I see that the KLM US website has a place to apply for EU compensation - https://www.klm.com/travel/us_en/cus...r_a_refund.htm - although it would be interesting to see who handles the complaint, in light of the fact that Delta had nothing to do with this one.
The idea that a mechanical delay constitutes extraordinary circumstances is absurd - given the the regulation gives examples of extraordinary circumstances, and mechanical delays (a very common reason for delays) is not listed - while the far less common "political instability" is listed.
It is also interesting that the KLM page above misquotes the regulation - the regulation used the phrase "extraordinary circumstances' for the exemption, while the KLM page says "special circumstances."
It would be interesting to hear if you hear from the Spanish authorities. I'm not sure if strategically it might make sense to go straight to small claims court if the airline denies the claim - as the administrative body might just ignore the complaint, and then if you did go to small claims court the judge might decide you had your day in court with the administrative agency and deny on that basis.
Serving KLM with a small claims court lawsuit might make them reasonable - I believe they would have to send an employee to defend, and i don't think KLM has that many employees in the US.
I see that the KLM US website has a place to apply for EU compensation - https://www.klm.com/travel/us_en/cus...r_a_refund.htm - although it would be interesting to see who handles the complaint, in light of the fact that Delta had nothing to do with this one.
The idea that a mechanical delay constitutes extraordinary circumstances is absurd - given the the regulation gives examples of extraordinary circumstances, and mechanical delays (a very common reason for delays) is not listed - while the far less common "political instability" is listed.
It is also interesting that the KLM page above misquotes the regulation - the regulation used the phrase "extraordinary circumstances' for the exemption, while the KLM page says "special circumstances."
It would be interesting to hear if you hear from the Spanish authorities. I'm not sure if strategically it might make sense to go straight to small claims court if the airline denies the claim - as the administrative body might just ignore the complaint, and then if you did go to small claims court the judge might decide you had your day in court with the administrative agency and deny on that basis.
Serving KLM with a small claims court lawsuit might make them reasonable - I believe they would have to send an employee to defend, and i don't think KLM has that many employees in the US.
I'm currently in the middle of a dispute with Delta over EC compensation for a cancelled DL-operated flight ex-BCN requiring me to overnight in Europe, where they are claiming "extraordinary circumstances" occurred (incorrectly, in my opinion). I was talking in circles with the Delta rep who avoided responding in any detail about their "extraordinary circumstances" assertion, so I ended up escalating to the Spanish regulatory authorities a week or two ago and am waiting to hear back.
Your best bet is to start by contacting KLM customer service (which, because you are in the US, will likely be handled by Delta). Succinctly note in your request that you are requesting flight cancellation compensation. I'd also explicitly reference the Sturgeon v. Condor decision where EC courts held that technical faults in an aircraft do not qualify as 'extraordinary circumstances' in your message.
Something like: (substitute EUR600 for the amount you believe is due based on how long your arrival at final destination was delayed)
"I am writing to request cancellation compensation of EUR600 under EC Regulation 261/2004 as I was delayed more than 12 hours arriving at my final destination. I was informed at the airport that the cancellation of my original flight was due to mechanical failure. As I'm sure you're aware, EC courts held in the Sturgeon v. Condor case that mechanical failure does not qualify as an 'extraordinary circumstance', and therefore I believe compensation is due for this flight."
They may try claiming the flight wasn't technically 'cancelled', but delayed by many hours (a tactic Delta is using in my case despite the flight being announced as cancelled at the airport and the flight being operated as a different flight number on the following day). If that happens, make sure to reply that Sturgeon v. Condor also held that a delay longer than three hours is now equivalent to a cancellation for the purposes of compensation, making that distinction irrelevant.
There's basically no downside for an airline denying a claim on first request, so make sure to set your expectations accordingly for a long process. You will likely have to send a complaint to the enforcement body in Italy if you are denied by KLM on first request; if so, it will be helpful to have a full transcript of all of your communications handy.
If you aren't successful with the national enforcement body (where I understand the bulk of these complaints are resolved), the legal system is still available to you. Hopefully neither of our cases comes to that point, but if so, I am very glad my group legal insurance coverage is provided by a company based in the EU and, conveniently, includes international consumer protection assistance...
Your best bet is to start by contacting KLM customer service (which, because you are in the US, will likely be handled by Delta). Succinctly note in your request that you are requesting flight cancellation compensation. I'd also explicitly reference the Sturgeon v. Condor decision where EC courts held that technical faults in an aircraft do not qualify as 'extraordinary circumstances' in your message.
Something like: (substitute EUR600 for the amount you believe is due based on how long your arrival at final destination was delayed)
"I am writing to request cancellation compensation of EUR600 under EC Regulation 261/2004 as I was delayed more than 12 hours arriving at my final destination. I was informed at the airport that the cancellation of my original flight was due to mechanical failure. As I'm sure you're aware, EC courts held in the Sturgeon v. Condor case that mechanical failure does not qualify as an 'extraordinary circumstance', and therefore I believe compensation is due for this flight."
They may try claiming the flight wasn't technically 'cancelled', but delayed by many hours (a tactic Delta is using in my case despite the flight being announced as cancelled at the airport and the flight being operated as a different flight number on the following day). If that happens, make sure to reply that Sturgeon v. Condor also held that a delay longer than three hours is now equivalent to a cancellation for the purposes of compensation, making that distinction irrelevant.
There's basically no downside for an airline denying a claim on first request, so make sure to set your expectations accordingly for a long process. You will likely have to send a complaint to the enforcement body in Italy if you are denied by KLM on first request; if so, it will be helpful to have a full transcript of all of your communications handy.
If you aren't successful with the national enforcement body (where I understand the bulk of these complaints are resolved), the legal system is still available to you. Hopefully neither of our cases comes to that point, but if so, I am very glad my group legal insurance coverage is provided by a company based in the EU and, conveniently, includes international consumer protection assistance...
Apr 28, 2014, 2:44 pm
#9
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Understand that recent reporting suggests:
1. Approximately 2% of eligible EC 261/2004 claims are actually made.
2. National authorities are doing little to nothing to enforce.
3. The specific issue on mechanicals is not that they are all exempt but that where a carrier has properly maintained a part and replaced it when required and so on, that it's failure is "extraordinary". Clearly carriers willing to litigate this issue as there are likely millions at stake.
1. Approximately 2% of eligible EC 261/2004 claims are actually made.
2. National authorities are doing little to nothing to enforce.
3. The specific issue on mechanicals is not that they are all exempt but that where a carrier has properly maintained a part and replaced it when required and so on, that it's failure is "extraordinary". Clearly carriers willing to litigate this issue as there are likely millions at stake.
Apr 29, 2014, 9:45 am
#11
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
In California (don't know about other states), corporations must send a non-attorney employee. Attorneys are not allowed.
BTW, my wife got an email today from KLM (not Delta) offering her 4,000 Skymiles for the inconvenience, in "response" to her "request." She made no request, so I suspect this might have been triggered by my call to KLM in Amsterdam to get her re-routed.
We will make the EU request shortly and see what happens.
BTW, my wife got an email today from KLM (not Delta) offering her 4,000 Skymiles for the inconvenience, in "response" to her "request." She made no request, so I suspect this might have been triggered by my call to KLM in Amsterdam to get her re-routed.
We will make the EU request shortly and see what happens.
May 9, 2014, 11:40 am
#13
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: YVR
Posts: 1,465
I am trying to figure out if compensation is due in my case. Booked this ticket issued by DL:
May 7:
SVO-AMS KL3181 codeshare operated by SU2550
55 minutes connection
AMS-YVR KL681
On May 7 KL3181/SU2550 was delayed making the connection impossible, so SU rebooked the ticket for next day:
May 8:
SVO-AMS SU2550
55 minutes connection
AMS-YVR KL681
Arrived at YVR one day late as a result. Any compensation due?
May 7:
SVO-AMS KL3181 codeshare operated by SU2550
55 minutes connection
AMS-YVR KL681
On May 7 KL3181/SU2550 was delayed making the connection impossible, so SU rebooked the ticket for next day:
May 8:
SVO-AMS SU2550
55 minutes connection
AMS-YVR KL681
Arrived at YVR one day late as a result. Any compensation due?
May 15, 2014, 10:34 am
#15
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EU Compensation for KLM Cancelled Flight
I highly doubt you can take KL to small claims in the US for EC261 claims. US court is not going to enforce EU law.