griep

Another new carrier this summer on the AMS-DXB route is Garuda Indonesia. They use Dubai as a stop between Amsterdam and Jakarta.

florin

For some reason I kind of doubt that pax would rush to fly Garuda to DXB.

nomad1974

Don't be so sure. Garuda is changing and with the right kind of fares and frequencies, I'm sure they will attract some traffic. Anyway, they will also not want to fill the plane with AMS-DXB traffic, rather AMS-CGK.

Remember also the GA is supposed to join SkyTeam at some point, so perhaps even a codeshare with KL is envisaged?

florin

The topic of the thread is/was competition for KL to the Middle East. Not every carrier flying into AMS is really direct competition for KL. KL does code share with several airlines (including MH) and if they start codesharing with GA, it just means more options to CGK and beyond.

KL is relies on connecting pax. They've been doing what they're doing for many years and they do it well, IMO. I said before that EK is only a competitor for O/D traffic. I don't see GA making much of a dent here.

johan rebel

According to Dutch business travel magazine Zakenreis, KL has reduced ex-AMS WBC fares to DXB by "hundreds of Euros".

Johan

florin

When I first read this I thought "wow, cool!"... but then I realized that we're talking strictly about AMS-DXB flights. xxx-AMS-DXB remains unchallenged and therefore unchanged. I don't know how many pax on KL's AMS-DXB flight originate in AMS, but I'd be willing to be that the vast majority are connecting pax. A reduction of "hundreds of euros" that only applies to a handful of pax falls short of exciting.

If EK had a bunch codeshare flights from other cities to AMS, it would be a different story.

Gnopps

Published KL fares AMS-DXB in business class today:
Published KL fares AMS-DXB in business class 26 Nov 2009:
You may note as I that the fares are exactly the same! Perhaps corporate fares have been reduced but I'd rather say that Zakenreis may need to check their facts...

johan rebel

Will be interesting to see whether the fares will change once EK gets into gear at AMS, and what their fares are.

Johan

jetfan

Indeed.
And GA seems to have a pretty decent product in J-class with their A330.
Wonder what their fares will be like too.

I recently travelled on Emirates to Japan in J, transferring in DXB.
I was travelling from FRA, not my usual station AMS.
The product is very solid hardware wise.
Good seats, great crew, decent meals.
But transferring in DXB, in the middle of the night, was hell.
They have a brandnew terminal but it's already too small.
I counted at least 20 widebodies parked on remote stands and the bus trip to the terminal took forever!
Decent lounges but horrible, non-clean showers.

Schedule-wise for me this is not a realistic option, it cuts my sleep in half.

johan rebel

luchtvaartnieuws.nl interview with Clark (in Dutch, of course).

Long story, but decision to start flying to AMS was catalyzed by personal animosity between Clark and Van Wyk.

Load factors currently 65%, Clark is already planning capacity increases (larger aircraft first, then frequency). He also says that KLAF can't hold a candle to EK's Dubai hub & network.

Johan

SchmeckFlyer

I didn't really get the feeling that the article boiled down to crediting a brief verbal spat between Clark and Van Wyk with the decision by Emirates to start services to Amsterdam. If anything, it is a nice anecdote and fun to read about, but I can hardly imagine a business would make a decision based solely on a personal rivalry.

Earlier in the article it claims Emirates never wanted to fly to Amsterdam, because Clark felt Emirates could not compete head-on with the similar hub-system set up by KLM out of AMS. Then the spat. The article goes on to say that Emirates now has a huge network out of Dubai, that rivals that of Air France-KLM. And while not out to pilfer passengers, Emirates wants to show those passengers they can also fly with them (or something to that effect). Not quite sure I believe the exchange with Van Wyk lead to the decision to start competing head-on though... there has to be some business case.

Perhaps Emirates concentrated first on less served cities (like Hamburg and Edinburgh) or cities with vast catchment areas or important industries (i.e. London), then felt it could "take on" KLM with its "vast" hub system?

Anyway, but I do I like this comment by Clark:

Translation: Backpackers

Even though Emirates has a posh image, it receives 70% of its revenue from economy class. According to Clark, airlines should not cater exclusively to profitable business travellers. "The backpacker of today is the businessman of tomorrow. You cannot forget that."

Emirates now flies daily between Amsterdam and Dubai with a Boeing 777. The aircraft are filled to about 65% capacity and summer bookings appear promising. "We are going to deploy 777s with more seats in the near future, and then the frequency will increase. If I could fly our aircraft to Rotterdam, I would do that too."

Nice to know not every airline would rather fling its economy customers to the wind if they had the chance, and I've always been a big proponent of building goodwill to build loyalty (in any business really, not just aviation). Would be great if they flew to Rotterdam though... cheap(er) airport, closer to the Hague and the port facilities of Rotterdam, real alternative to Schiphol for long-haul travel (Dusseldorf and Eindhoven are not alternatives unless you live on the German border or plan on flying Liar Air to the middle of nowhere).

Gajan

I read the article too and was wondering if RTM can even handle a B777?

johan rebel

Leaving aside RTM's pax and luggage handling capacity, it also only has a single 2,200 m runway (06/24), which is just slightly longer than AMS' sixth and shortest (04/22). I can't imagine that's long enough for regular longhaul/widebody operations.

Johan

Sjoerd

I have been looking at flights (economy class) between AMS and KUL, SIN and BKK for August, September, October and November, and EK is almost always the cheapest, on average some €100 cheaper than alternative flights. Unfortunately, the connections in Dubai are at horrible times and sometimes quite long. Perhaps some backpackers wouldn't mind, but I'll gladly pay €100 more for a direct flight on KL, MH or SQ.

COFF-Platinum

777 required runway length is 2,500-3,536 m dependent on type