LAX--New focus city
#16
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
The "you've been warned" bit? That is required by FT rules and I've used the same phrase (slightly deviating from the suggested wording) on countless posts. It has nothing to do with you.
JetBlue remains on the waiting list for slots at SNA but, much like LGB, they are limited and the locals don't want any more on the market. Also, it is sufficiently far south that it becomes a very different catchment area. JetBlue has been successful at LAX. The long-haul routes are profitable, far more than anything at LGB was. Growing into the short-haul market there with many routes highly competitive might not work as well, but LGB was definitely not working. So, much like the less traditional route map adjustments recently announced, the company is going to try something different and see if it works. If they can even tread water at LAX through this mess and come out the other end vaguely stable the opportunities to add international VFR traffic and Mint to Hawaii could bring massive upside. But that's probably 3 years away still.
Horrid for the business, great for passengers.
JetBlue remains on the waiting list for slots at SNA but, much like LGB, they are limited and the locals don't want any more on the market. Also, it is sufficiently far south that it becomes a very different catchment area. JetBlue has been successful at LAX. The long-haul routes are profitable, far more than anything at LGB was. Growing into the short-haul market there with many routes highly competitive might not work as well, but LGB was definitely not working. So, much like the less traditional route map adjustments recently announced, the company is going to try something different and see if it works. If they can even tread water at LAX through this mess and come out the other end vaguely stable the opportunities to add international VFR traffic and Mint to Hawaii could bring massive upside. But that's probably 3 years away still.
Horrid for the business, great for passengers.
#17
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NYC
Programs: AS MVPG, DL KM, Bee Six, Bonvoy Plat, Avis PC, Natl Exec, Greyhound Road Rewards Z"L
Posts: 16,665
How were fares and yields from LGB? If they can get better fares from LAX, especially on transcon flights, then it's probably a win for JetBlue in the medium to long term. No longer having to worry about the curfew is a bonus, although it's not like they were violating the curfew just for the fun of it, and the low slot utilization suggests low yields, as it was better for them to prevent someone else from adding a flight rather than adding one themselves.
What will be more telling is if Southwest adds flights (if they see that there is money in LGB) or if they pull back (if they were just competing with JetBlue).
What will be more telling is if Southwest adds flights (if they see that there is money in LGB) or if they pull back (if they were just competing with JetBlue).
The thing is, IMO of course, if passengers have to go to LAX, there's no guarantee they will fly JetBlue, especially if another carrier is cheaper or has a better schedule. Outside of COVID times, AA and DL also had a small complimentary meal in Y (on JFK and I imagine some other transcons) which is a step up from B6 no matter how you spin it (OTOH, B6 has the free WiFi, though with T-Mobile you get at least some functionality with Gogo). Basically, if I have to go to LAX, I really have no reason to take JetBlue unless I'm in Mint, I'm connecting, or I'm Mosaic. If you have Priority Pass, you have Even More reason to take AS or DL. When push comes to shove, ceteris paribus, I just don't see that many people being willing to pay extra or sacrifice a better schedule just for The JetBlue Experience®.
-J.
Last edited by GW McLintock; Jul 9, 2020 at 8:48 pm
#18
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Let me check my Logbook
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards; AAdvantage; Alaska Mileage Plan; Wyndham Rewards; Choice Hotels
Posts: 2,350
Why not move to SNA if the main reasons they left LGB are because of curfew restriction and lack of international processing facility?
Going into LAX when there are already crowded with major airlines is a bone-head move, IMO. Plus traveler will complain the increasing car traffic.
Going into LAX when there are already crowded with major airlines is a bone-head move, IMO. Plus traveler will complain the increasing car traffic.
#19
#20
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Japan/Thailand
Programs: AS, UA
Posts: 1,201
Oh for sure LAX will give better yields. LGB was hemorrhaging money. So you are right in that JetBlue is the winner here, for now.
The thing is, IMO of course, if passengers have to go to LAX, there's no guarantee they will fly JetBlue, especially if another carrier is cheaper or has a better schedule. Outside of COVID times, AA and DL also had a small complimentary meal in Y (on JFK and I imagine some other transcons) which is a step up from B6 no matter how you spin it (OTOH, B6 has the free WiFi, though with T-Mobile you get at least some functionality with Gogo). Basically, if I have to go to LAX, I really have no reason to take JetBlue unless I'm in Mint, I'm connecting, or I'm Mosaic. If you have Priority Pass, you have Even More reason to take AS or DL. When push comes to shove, ceteris paribus, I just don't see that many people being willing to pay extra or sacrifice a better schedule just for The JetBlue Experience®.
-J.
The thing is, IMO of course, if passengers have to go to LAX, there's no guarantee they will fly JetBlue, especially if another carrier is cheaper or has a better schedule. Outside of COVID times, AA and DL also had a small complimentary meal in Y (on JFK and I imagine some other transcons) which is a step up from B6 no matter how you spin it (OTOH, B6 has the free WiFi, though with T-Mobile you get at least some functionality with Gogo). Basically, if I have to go to LAX, I really have no reason to take JetBlue unless I'm in Mint, I'm connecting, or I'm Mosaic. If you have Priority Pass, you have Even More reason to take AS or DL. When push comes to shove, ceteris paribus, I just don't see that many people being willing to pay extra or sacrifice a better schedule just for The JetBlue Experience®.
-J.
So many JetBlue's network is to/from other large primary airports with competition (JFK, BOS, SFO, current flights at LAX), so they should be used to dealing with that competition already, and many potential LGB passengers would also search for flights from LAX anyway given how close the two airports are.
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Programs: AA Gold AAdvantage Elite, Rapids Reward
Posts: 38,311
I was hoping LAX-PHX/ATL/SJD/HNL/OGG/KOA/LIH/CUN and else. They would like to bring more nonstop flight. If they have gate space available.
As for JetBlue, they won't be move to MSC. They will stay at entire T5. AA will shrinks the flights. They will free up the gates space.
As for JetBlue, they won't be move to MSC. They will stay at entire T5. AA will shrinks the flights. They will free up the gates space.
#22
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Let me check my Logbook
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards; AAdvantage; Alaska Mileage Plan; Wyndham Rewards; Choice Hotels
Posts: 2,350
So long Jet Blue. Jet Blue had the best in cabin product for economy class at least for the USA and Canada, in my opinion. Unfortunately Jet Blue charges 80$USD to check two bags, whereas you get to check two bags free of charge on Southwest. I hope Southwest gets the lion's share of the soon to be opened slots at LGB.
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NYC
Programs: AS MVPG, DL KM, Bee Six, Bonvoy Plat, Avis PC, Natl Exec, Greyhound Road Rewards Z"L
Posts: 16,665
People didn't seem to be willing to pay a premium for the The JetBlue Experience® from LGB.
So many JetBlue's network is to/from other large primary airports with competition (JFK, BOS, SFO, current flights at LAX), so they should be used to dealing with that competition already, and many potential LGB passengers would also search for flights from LAX anyway given how close the two airports are.
So many JetBlue's network is to/from other large primary airports with competition (JFK, BOS, SFO, current flights at LAX), so they should be used to dealing with that competition already, and many potential LGB passengers would also search for flights from LAX anyway given how close the two airports are.
-J.
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
I actually think this is a pretty good move. LGB was pretty restricted when it comes to expansion potential. Couple that with the recent news that AA is basically giving up at LAX and it makes sense.
#25
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,485
I don't know necessarily how many people they are losing out by leaving LGB, but their performances there were horrendous. In the perfect world, LGB would've allowed E90 to use commuter slots, more slots available earlier and FIS setup sooner. If that had happened, JetBlue could've had its own airport in LA area. But none of that happened. They were stuck operating limited schedule with the few slots they had and unable to offer International flights that they wanted. It makes very little sense for an airline the size of JetBlue to do a split focus city operation of 20 flight each. Consolidating at LAX will allow them to finally do international flights, more connections from mint and more flexible scheduling for those red-eye transcons they love to do.
They are basically taking advantage of AA downsizing in LAX. It sounds like they only got 1 additional gate in addition to the CUTE gates they already have access to. That should be enough to operate the 30 to 40 flights they are like to run over the next year or so. Long term, I think they must have some confidence they will be able to get more gates. The only other airports where they announced focus city target size were BOS (200) and FLL(140). In both those cases, they signed deals for more gates after they made those announcements. So I think they must be in some advanced dialog with LAWA to getting additional gates as long as they can meet certain usage requirements and pay for the work LAWA needs to do. We will see. AA had previously planned to spend $1.6 billion to get all of T4 and 5. Given their current cash crunch, I don't think they will have money for this. That's probably why JetBlue is able to stick around in T-5.
They are basically taking advantage of AA downsizing in LAX. It sounds like they only got 1 additional gate in addition to the CUTE gates they already have access to. That should be enough to operate the 30 to 40 flights they are like to run over the next year or so. Long term, I think they must have some confidence they will be able to get more gates. The only other airports where they announced focus city target size were BOS (200) and FLL(140). In both those cases, they signed deals for more gates after they made those announcements. So I think they must be in some advanced dialog with LAWA to getting additional gates as long as they can meet certain usage requirements and pay for the work LAWA needs to do. We will see. AA had previously planned to spend $1.6 billion to get all of T4 and 5. Given their current cash crunch, I don't think they will have money for this. That's probably why JetBlue is able to stick around in T-5.
#26
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 366
I believe it is done for long term strategic purpose, with assumption Covid will eventually die down. It makes sense to exit LGB and it has a presence already at LAX.
#27
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 366
Oh for sure LAX will give better yields. LGB was hemorrhaging money. So you are right in that JetBlue is the winner here, for now.
The thing is, IMO of course, if passengers have to go to LAX, there's no guarantee they will fly JetBlue, especially if another carrier is cheaper or has a better schedule. Outside of COVID times, AA and DL also had a small complimentary meal in Y (on JFK and I imagine some other transcons) which is a step up from B6 no matter how you spin it (OTOH, B6 has the free WiFi, though with T-Mobile you get at least some functionality with Gogo). Basically, if I have to go to LAX, I really have no reason to take JetBlue unless I'm in Mint, I'm connecting, or I'm Mosaic. If you have Priority Pass, you have Even More reason to take AS or DL. When push comes to shove, ceteris paribus, I just don't see that many people being willing to pay extra or sacrifice a better schedule just for The JetBlue Experience®.
-J.
The thing is, IMO of course, if passengers have to go to LAX, there's no guarantee they will fly JetBlue, especially if another carrier is cheaper or has a better schedule. Outside of COVID times, AA and DL also had a small complimentary meal in Y (on JFK and I imagine some other transcons) which is a step up from B6 no matter how you spin it (OTOH, B6 has the free WiFi, though with T-Mobile you get at least some functionality with Gogo). Basically, if I have to go to LAX, I really have no reason to take JetBlue unless I'm in Mint, I'm connecting, or I'm Mosaic. If you have Priority Pass, you have Even More reason to take AS or DL. When push comes to shove, ceteris paribus, I just don't see that many people being willing to pay extra or sacrifice a better schedule just for The JetBlue Experience®.
-J.
#28
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
Maybe it will end up with a niche in LAX. For some reason, I see it attempting LAX-PIT and LAX-CLE, which have had nonstop carriers or might still but on a few carriers and these markets maybe more like LAX-BUF in market size, over LAX-IAD or BWI, and LAX-ATL, even though the latter are larger markets.
JetBlue isn't a west coast airline. And ramping up to compete as one would've distracted massively from the areas where the company was successful in the east. Trying to make LGB successful wasn't going to work and the company wants to keep some shorthaul flying out west, hopefully to add Hawaii and some Central America later. This is how it is going to get there, or at least how it is going to try to get there.
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
AA is closing some international routes at LAX. It is less clear how much the domestic traffic will scale back, though certainly some of the domestic depends on the international feed. But JetBlue is still a #7 player at best in LAX by size. That's not great, but at least the Mint flights were making money, unlike pretty much everything at LGB.
JetBlue isn't a west coast airline. And ramping up to compete as one would've distracted massively from the areas where the company was successful in the east. Trying to make LGB successful wasn't going to work and the company wants to keep some shorthaul flying out west, hopefully to add Hawaii and some Central America later. This is how it is going to get there, or at least how it is going to try to get there.
#30
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NYC
Programs: AS MVPG, DL KM, Bee Six, Bonvoy Plat, Avis PC, Natl Exec, Greyhound Road Rewards Z"L
Posts: 16,665
-J.