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Lots of Changes (165 seats per Airbus, and more)

Lots of Changes (165 seats per Airbus, and more)

Old Nov 20, 2014, 8:35 am
  #46  
 
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There goes my loyalty

In as so much I had loyalty to any carrier anymore, it was JetBlue. They were different. They still treated you (generally speaking) like a customer not just a number.

Now, they seem like everyone else. I'll no longer book JetBlue just because, I'll truly be booking on lowest fare with an edge (and I can't believe I'm saying this) to WN because they still have free checked bags. I almost always check for my leisure trips and it also seems like the cabin has less fighting over overhead space when people aren't trying to avoid bag fees.

There's little point in me writing to JetBlue, I have minimal points as my new job (that I've been in since 12/2011) has minimal travel and 90+% of my flying is leisure. But, it'll still be a few thousand a year that likely goes elsewhere.

P.S. Southwest has already responded:
http://www.blogsouthwest.com/bags-fly-free-for-all/
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 8:39 am
  #47  
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Originally Posted by dieuwer2
The "No More Free Bag" announcement was all over the networks in Boston last night. Speaking about bad advertisement...
The cuts in JetBlue's value prop have received heavy attention in national media, because those media are based in New York and there is high JetBlue consciousness there. The NBC Nightly News and CBS This Morning both gave this story heavy critical attention in the past 24 hours.

The analyst on the CBS morning show today (they did a long five-minute discussion of JetBlue and other carriers turning on the public) said she thought the more-seats, less-legroom, fewer-perks change was "a big risk" for B6, but also admitted "people have less choice" these days, so maybe the Wall Street whizzes are right and consumer choice really doesn't count for anything in this era -- unless you choose not to fly at all.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 9:00 am
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by LAXative
I guess we'll see next year if the prices actually drop to account for "unsubsidizing" everyone else's checked bags.)
Yes. I would think it's more likely that if you don't check bags you continue to pay the same price you would have paid under the previous system. If you do check bags, you now pay extra for that. So, the messaging that bundling fares will actually save money for those who don't check bags is probably just spin. But, I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

I really prefer JetBlue over the other carriers, so these changes were disappointing. I guess the changes were to be expected given the investor pressure, Wall Street etc., but this will hurt their reputation in the short term (although the wailing in Twitter and comment sections along the lines of "Never again, JetBlue!", "I'm only flying Southwest from now on!!") is a little over the top. If they can remain competitive on price, I would still prefer to fly JetBlue, especially as cabin changes to reduce legroom will begin only in mid-late 2016.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 10:25 am
  #49  
 
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theyve explained the changes to the regular seating ...34 to 33 inches but what about the EVEN MORE LEGROOM seats? will those still be 38 inch pitch ? ...please say yes...
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 10:27 am
  #50  
 
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Originally Posted by bobforcfo
theyve explained the changes to the regular seating ...34 to 33 inches but what about the EVEN MORE LEGROOM seats? will those still be 38 inch pitch ? ...please say yes...
That's not in the investor deck.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 10:32 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by bobforcfo
theyve explained the changes to the regular seating ...34 to 33 inches but what about the EVEN MORE LEGROOM seats? will those still be 38 inch pitch ?
It only has to be "even more" than 33". I'm guessing 35".
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 10:35 am
  #52  
 
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if they keep the 38", that means alot..at least for the people that care about legroom there will be a desirable option...otherwise there really will be zero differentiation to justify their higher prices and they will be a commodity airline only fighting on price IMO
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 10:48 am
  #53  
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Originally Posted by bobforcfo
if they keep the 38", that means alot..at least for the people that care about legroom there will be a desirable option...otherwise there really will be zero differentiation to justify their higher prices and they will be a commodity airline only fighting on price IMO
That's what Wall Street demands.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 10:54 am
  #54  
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Originally Posted by BearX220
That's what Wall Street demands.
Which means that a private company may be the only way for an airline to at least try to be customer-focused.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 11:35 am
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian
Which means that a private company may be the only way for an airline to at least try to be customer-focused.
Agreed, but it's unfortunately really hard to grow that way though. See: America, Virgin.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 11:50 am
  #56  
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian
Which means that a private company may be the only way for an airline to at least try to be customer-focused.
There are numerous cases where public investor pressure is a negative influence on the customer's fortunes. I worked for a publicly held creative services agency where it was often extremely difficult to do the right thing for a client -- act in support of a long-term relationship, sell them what they needed rather than the most expensive thing -- because of unrelenting pressure to make good numbers in this quarter, right here, right now. So very often the client got sold a bunch of stuff it didn't need.

The agency collapsed.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 12:00 pm
  #57  
 
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Unhappy Some mild rebuttal points.

Originally Posted by BeantownDisneyFan
2:36 AM, EST, and it took me much longer then expected, but I have rebooked 7 RT transcon flights that were on jetBlue to AA. SCREW JET BLUE!

Boston, it was the perfect setting..........for jetBlue to entice Boston passengers away from other carriers, add lots of flights and cities, offer extra leg room and free checked baggage.........and then, pull the plug on all of it.

So, to jetBlue, I say the following: I know that you took advantage of me, that you "bait and switched me," and that you have no soul.

So, starting yesterday, I tell every person that I meet why they should walk away from jetBlue and fly any number of other carriers. And I keep repeating myself, and repeating myself, and repeating myself.

jetBlue, by the time enough of your former once loyal passengers are done with you, you should look like a prune.

Sayonara.
Full disclosure: I am a JetBlue pilot, and not thrilled about these changes.

Having said that, I'm just going to respond to a couple points you've made, and hope some of the others posters on the thread might take note.

If you are elite on AA, great, you have some upgrade options and admittedly TB and Mosaic are quite weak when compared to AAdvantage. If not, well, you've relegated yourself to a transcon on either a 737 or 757 with likely no AVOD/individual monitors, no free WIFI, and 31-inch pitch.

The changes to the A320 fleet will not start until 3Q 2016, which means if you were flying anytime next year (presumably, as AA only books one year forward) you've cost yourself 3 inches of pitch. Even after the changes, the pitch on the A320 fleet will be 32.6 inches, still greater than most (if not all) of the legacies.

In internal communications the company has indicated EMS seat pitch will remain at 38 inches.

The pitch is not changing on the E190.

The A321 product, which our customers seem to really like, was rolled out with 33 inches of pitch in basic coach. Nobody grabbed the pitchforks for that one.

The company did a very poor job of rolling out this issue to our customers, which is disappointing. The communication indeed had a tone of "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you".

I wish it hadn't happened, and with reconfigurations not scheduled to begin for 17 months it may still not. However, the writing has seemingly been on the wall for the last few quarterly calls... At a minimum I'd like to see Mosaic members receive the EMS product for free to increase the value proposition, but that's not my side of the company.
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 1:02 pm
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Aewanabe
Full disclosure: I am a JetBlue pilot, and not thrilled about these changes.
Thank you for your insight.
Originally Posted by Aewanabe
If you are elite on AA, great, you have some upgrade options and admittedly TB and Mosaic are quite weak when compared to AAdvantage. If not, well, you've relegated yourself to a transcon on either a 737 or 757 with likely no AVOD/individual monitors, no free WIFI, and 31-inch pitch.
One point of contention... the JFK-LAX/SFO routes are serviced by new AA B321s (with actual F suites & J product, all lie-flats). Without getting into a Boeing vs. Airbus argument, at least those routes out of B6's homebase aren't suffered in beaten-up slaveships. While I would point out that the 738s are being updated, it's a slow pace and in the near future, you're correct that one is likely to get an older AA plane.

The problem for your company here is that if someone flies B6 enough to be Mosaic, they probably would fly enough to be an AA elite as well. With B6 shooting themselves in the foot and taking away their own advantages and further amplifying AA's pros (MCE seating for some, free checked bag(s), chance to upgrade, points into a decent FF program), why would a regular reasonable passenger choose B6 over AA?

The blue chips are good... but not that good

Originally Posted by Aewanabe

In internal communications the company has indicated EMS seat pitch will remain at 38 inches.

The pitch is not changing on the E190.

The A321 product, which our customers seem to really like, was rolled out with 33 inches of pitch in basic coach. Nobody grabbed the pitchforks for that one.
I've never understood why seat distance is measured in pitch (from one point on the seat to the same point on the next seat)... one would think actual kneeroom (from front of cushion to seat back) was more important, but I digress.

For B6's sake, I'm glad to see they're keeping EMS at 38" and not changing the E190. But why in the world would that fact NOT be included in the announcement??? You have some grade-A dummies in the communications department if they didn't think to try to mitigate this news by trumpeting EMS and relying solely on fluff (see below)

Originally Posted by Aewanabe
The company did a very poor job of rolling out this issue to our customers, which is disappointing. The communication indeed had a tone of "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you".

I wish it hadn't happened, and with reconfigurations not scheduled to begin for 17 months it may still not. However, the writing has seemingly been on the wall for the last few quarterly calls... At a minimum I'd like to see Mosaic members receive the EMS product for free to increase the value proposition, but that's not my side of the company.
Piss poor job. I got the feeling that they thought the public wasn't intelligent enough to see through the smokescreen, and de facto insulting a customer bases' intelligence is dangerous ground indeed.

It would have been better if they had just admitted they had to start charging for bags, but, e.g., the 1st checked bag charge is still cheaper than the competition's (if that actually were the case). The spin backfired, and now it looks like they were trying to hide the truth (which they were, but they just made it 1000x worse for themselves).
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 4:01 pm
  #59  
 
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LAXative, thanks for the response. I've got little ones to get to bed and the multi-quote function isn't working so well for me, so I'll briefly touch on some of your points.

Fully agree about Mosaic versus other airline elite statuses. I really think we're going to have to up the value proposition there for our frequent customers.

It looks to me that for anyone less than elite on a legacy our coach product will still be pretty competitive. Your point is well taken about the A321 transcon product, but the poster I was responding to seemed to be referencing flights from BOS, thus my response about the comparable equipment.

I too don't understand why the E190 pitch, EMS pitch, and the fact that our existing A321 pitch will all remain unchanged were completely ignored. As regards your evaluation of our communications department, I'd run afoul of our social-media policy to agree, so "no comment" will have to suffice

Last edited by Aewanabe; Nov 20, 2014 at 4:07 pm
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Old Nov 20, 2014, 5:17 pm
  #60  
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Originally Posted by BeantownDisneyFan
2:36 AM, EST, and it took me much longer then expected, but I have rebooked 7 RT transcon flights that were on jetBlue to AA. SCREW JET BLUE!
And what do you get for that change? Assuming you're still flying in Y I'd take 32.5" in a B/E Aerospace seat on B6 over the AA Recaro seats.

I certainly understand the cathartic feeling of saying "screw you" to a company, but the changes are still 18 months out and in the interim you're giving yourself a worse experience on board.

Originally Posted by LAXative
One point of contention... the JFK-LAX/SFO routes are serviced by new AA B321s (with actual F suites & J product, all lie-flats).
Sure, but also with Recaro's slimline seats in Y. And they are not fun to ride 5-6 hours in. The AVOD is nice but adding a connection and the less comfortable seat (save paying extra for MCE on AA which is just as uncomfortable but with more legroom) seems a bad idea to me.

I'm not happy with the changes either, but with more than a year to go before we start to see the new cabin configs I figure there is plenty of time to decide on what to do with my travel.

I could argue that the fare family thing is even worse for me. Even if I end up buying a mid-range fare (i.e. 1 free bag) odds are I won't be checking one so I'm still "subsidizing" someone else's behavior.
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