Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > JetBlue | TrueBlue
Reload this Page >

Spirit on Strike and the effect on Jetblue

Spirit on Strike and the effect on Jetblue

Reply

Old Jun 13, 10, 1:57 pm
  #16  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northern New Jersey
Programs: OnePass, AAdvantage, TrueBlue, HHonors
Posts: 2,709
Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
Well, CO and WN fly different aircraft so those pilots wouldn't necessarily be qualified. B6 and DL have Airbii that the pilots could head over to but they start at the bottom of the seniority list so they're taking a pay cut - often significant - to make the leap. The system is one that was structured by both management and the pilots. They cannot reasonably blame the other for the structure of the employment contracts. They can fight over the numbers and benefits but the structure is what they agreed upon and jumping between carriers is a very hard move to make.
I threw out all those carries just for the sake of throwing out carriers (Pilots can always retrain or be already trained couple different).

Just out of curiousity, how bad can it be making the jump if they are so underpaid that they are demanding a 30% raise?

Last edited by Seat13c; Jun 13, 10 at 2:02 pm
Seat13c is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 13, 10, 2:18 pm
  #17  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: new york
Programs: trueblue ,mileageplus skymiles, hilton honors silver
Posts: 960
Switching to B6

Originally Posted by Seat13c View Post
I threw out all those carries just for the sake of throwing out carriers (Pilots can always retrain or be already trained couple different).

Just out of curiousity, how bad can it be making the jump if they are so underpaid that they are demanding a 30% raise?
If the pilots switched to B6 they would start at the bottom of the pay scale. I also don't think there are many pilot jobs available.
bmg42000 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 13, 10, 3:03 pm
  #18  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,033
Originally Posted by sfozrhfco View Post
It is not the structure of the original contract that is to blame, it is the fact that many work groups at many US airlines have to spend 3+ years after the contract has expired to work out a new one.
I disagree, at least with respect to the point I was making about why the pilots don't just switch to another carrier.

In my industry I can move to a new company with 10 years experience and my pay will reflect that, even though those 10 years came from another employer. In the airline industry I'd have 0 years on the pay and seniority scale. Such a scheme makes it financially burdensome to make the switch. The airlines like this because it helps them to protect the investments they are making in their crews in terms of training, etc. The pilots like it because they know that once they are in and past the first couple years they're going to have limited competition for seniority in terms of choosing the shifts/routes they work.

If management told the union that there was $1Bn for salaries and that the union got to split it up however they want I would guess that the end result would be similar, with the more senior guys getting paid more per hour of flight than the newer guys. Sure, the union would rather have $1.3Bn to split up but I'm not so sure that the means of how it is split would change much.

If the seniority on the pay scale was based on total experience rather than specific airline experience the salary scale would likely slide down a bit but pilots would be more mobile. Hard to say if that's a good or bad thing. I suppose it depends on your point of view.
sbm12 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 13, 10, 3:06 pm
  #19  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,033
Originally Posted by Seat13c View Post
Just out of curiousity, how bad can it be making the jump if they are so underpaid that they are demanding a 30% raise?
sbm12 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 13, 10, 5:32 pm
  #20  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: new york
Programs: trueblue ,mileageplus skymiles, hilton honors silver
Posts: 960
B6 salaries

Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
What is really interesting is that the B6 pilots make more than the CO & UA pilots (who fly 737's or a320's) . AA MD80/737 pilots do make more then the B6 pilots (as well as the UA/CO pilots) .
bmg42000 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 13, 10, 5:41 pm
  #21  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 15,585
Originally Posted by sfozrhfco View Post
Spirit is just the tip of the iceberg. Many of the legacy carriers will be in the same position. Employees lost their pensions and up to half of their salaries during the bankruptcies, oil price rise, aftermath of 9/11. The endless downward spiral of wages can not continue forever. The current airline structure in the US has failed miserably as a profit generating business. It remains to be seen which airlines can pay a livable wage, offer the services and frequencies that passengers want, and still make a profit. It may mean we have less airlines and higher fares in the future which is not necessarily a bad thing.
It doesn't seem like we need fewer airlines "in the future." The future is now, baby! Have you seen the fares this summer? The airlines are MINTING money right now. I am certain that, if this continues (and unless we get another calamity out of the blue, it's likely to continue), employee wages will start rising in the industry because the airlines will no longer be broke.

Of course, this is still a cyclical business, so I'm sure bad times are somewhere ahead of us (although it's hard to see "where" at the moment).

The big difference, of course, is that the gov't is very unlikely to let a major (or a big major) airline strike. You ain't gonna see DL shut down. Jetblue is probably the biggest airline the gov't would let go on strike. Call it "too big to strike."
iahphx is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 14, 10, 10:27 am
  #22  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: PERMANENTLY TERMINATED ACCOUNT
Posts: 13,905
Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /images/stories/airlines/pay_spirit2007.gif on this server.
Dieuwer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 14, 10, 10:43 am
  #23  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,033
Originally Posted by dieuwer2 View Post
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /images/stories/airlines/pay_spirit2007.gif on this server.
I guess they didn't like me embedding the image but not linking to their site.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...cc/spirit.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...c/jetblue.html
sbm12 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 14, 10, 4:32 pm
  #24  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: PERMANENTLY TERMINATED ACCOUNT
Posts: 13,905
Looking at the hourly rate tables, I do not see much difference between Spirit and B6. Sure, pilots at B6 earn about 10% more than pilots at Spirit but not 30%.
The big difference is the steepness of the curve: at B6, entry salaries are higher but level off faster, whereas at Spirit entry salaries are low but climb faster.

Example: 1st year Spirit = $71, 11th year Spirit = $141. 1 st year B6 = $138, 11th year B6 = $157.

These tables also show me that I should never become a pilot
And I feel sorry for the FOs, who seem to be severely underpaid.

Last edited by Dieuwer; Jun 14, 10 at 4:41 pm
Dieuwer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 14, 10, 5:35 pm
  #25  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Programs: B6 Mosaic, SPG LT Platinum, UA SIlver, VX eleVAte Gold (RIP)
Posts: 4,178
Except that there are mechanisms in place which prevent pilots at Spirit from moving up the ladder at a "normal" pace.

At any rate, as this is a discussion about the effect on jetBlue, it is obvious from the sold out status of most flights on routes where Spirit and jetBlue compete, jetBlue is definitely benefiting this week.
sfozrhfco is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 14, 10, 8:13 pm
  #26  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 519
The Spirit pilots are 100% resolved to see a fair contract. They are the lowest paid in their industry segment and fly into some of the most dangerous airports.

It's not so easy to just go work somewhere else. The average Spirit Captain has 20 years of experience and between 15,000-20,000 hours. The average FO has 10 years of experience and between 8,000-12,000 hours. To get up and go somewhere else (if they were hiring) would mean starting all over at the lowest pay and lowest seniority. They won't do that. They all have plan B established. If the company locks them out and replaces them (which would take a very long time) they are prepared to move on. Good talent never has a problem landing a good job. Spirit is just forgetting to value its good talent.

Also impacted are the rest of the employees--all of whom are standing behind this strike.

Stock prices for JetBlue were speculating about this today. Investors were chomping at the bit hoping for people's livlihoods to be destroyed--nice.
HRDiva is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15, 10, 12:32 am
  #27  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: EAU
Programs: UA 1K, CO Plat, NW Plat, Marriott Premiere Plat, SPG Plat, Priority Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,469
Originally Posted by HRDiva View Post
To get up and go somewhere else (if they were hiring) would mean starting all over at the lowest pay and lowest seniority. They won't do that.
But whose fault is that?

Oh yeah, the ALPA.

Someone should tell the pilots that the only reason they don't have the option to take their experience to another airline is because their union puts them in a position where their only option to get better pay is to have a union work stoppage. I mean, what if the most experienced pilots at Spirit could get better wages by simply - get this - going to another airline and getting more pay?


Here's an idea: All the pilots at all the airlines can their unions, and then can compete on their merits to work for the airline with the best pay.
raehl311 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15, 10, 4:49 am
  #28  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Programs: Trueblue, Skymiles, AAdvantage
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by HRDiva View Post
The Spirit pilots are 100% resolved to see a fair contract. They are the lowest paid in their industry segment and fly into some of the most dangerous airports.

What do you mean by dangerous? Hard to land? Or is there high crime in the area? I would think if it was that bad, Spirit would pull out?
Brigri is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15, 10, 6:46 am
  #29  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,033
You have two statements right next to each other that make no sense:
Originally Posted by HRDiva View Post
To get up and go somewhere else (if they were hiring) would mean starting all over at the lowest pay and lowest seniority. They won't do that.
and
Originally Posted by HRDiva View Post
...they are prepared to move on. Good talent never has a problem landing a good job.
So which is it?
sbm12 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15, 10, 12:16 pm
  #30  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northern New Jersey
Programs: OnePass, AAdvantage, TrueBlue, HHonors
Posts: 2,709
Originally Posted by dieuwer2 View Post
Example: 1st year Spirit = $71, 11th year Spirit = $141. 1 st year B6 = $138, 11th year B6 = $157.
To go from 11 years in with Spirit to 1st year at B6 is only a $3 per hour drop. When you're making $140+/- hour, that's hardly a big drop in pay. However, it would be a lot better to go from say 4 years with Spirit to first year with B6
Seat13c is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread