Spirit on Strike and the effect on Jetblue
#16
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Well, CO and WN fly different aircraft so those pilots wouldn't necessarily be qualified. B6 and DL have Airbii that the pilots could head over to but they start at the bottom of the seniority list so they're taking a pay cut - often significant - to make the leap. The system is one that was structured by both management and the pilots. They cannot reasonably blame the other for the structure of the employment contracts. They can fight over the numbers and benefits but the structure is what they agreed upon and jumping between carriers is a very hard move to make.
Just out of curiousity, how bad can it be making the jump if they are so underpaid that they are demanding a 30% raise?
Last edited by Seat13c; Jun 13, 2010 at 2:02 pm
#17
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Switching to B6
If the pilots switched to B6 they would start at the bottom of the pay scale. I also don't think there are many pilot jobs available.
#18
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In my industry I can move to a new company with 10 years experience and my pay will reflect that, even though those 10 years came from another employer. In the airline industry I'd have 0 years on the pay and seniority scale. Such a scheme makes it financially burdensome to make the switch. The airlines like this because it helps them to protect the investments they are making in their crews in terms of training, etc. The pilots like it because they know that once they are in and past the first couple years they're going to have limited competition for seniority in terms of choosing the shifts/routes they work.
If management told the union that there was $1Bn for salaries and that the union got to split it up however they want I would guess that the end result would be similar, with the more senior guys getting paid more per hour of flight than the newer guys. Sure, the union would rather have $1.3Bn to split up but I'm not so sure that the means of how it is split would change much.
If the seniority on the pay scale was based on total experience rather than specific airline experience the salary scale would likely slide down a bit but pilots would be more mobile. Hard to say if that's a good or bad thing. I suppose it depends on your point of view.
#20
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#21
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Spirit is just the tip of the iceberg. Many of the legacy carriers will be in the same position. Employees lost their pensions and up to half of their salaries during the bankruptcies, oil price rise, aftermath of 9/11. The endless downward spiral of wages can not continue forever. The current airline structure in the US has failed miserably as a profit generating business. It remains to be seen which airlines can pay a livable wage, offer the services and frequencies that passengers want, and still make a profit. It may mean we have less airlines and higher fares in the future which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Of course, this is still a cyclical business, so I'm sure bad times are somewhere ahead of us (although it's hard to see "where" at the moment).
The big difference, of course, is that the gov't is very unlikely to let a major (or a big major) airline strike. You ain't gonna see DL shut down. Jetblue is probably the biggest airline the gov't would let go on strike. Call it "too big to strike."
#23
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http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...cc/spirit.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...c/jetblue.html
#24
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Looking at the hourly rate tables, I do not see much difference between Spirit and B6. Sure, pilots at B6 earn about 10% more than pilots at Spirit but not 30%.
The big difference is the steepness of the curve: at B6, entry salaries are higher but level off faster, whereas at Spirit entry salaries are low but climb faster.
Example: 1st year Spirit = $71, 11th year Spirit = $141. 1 st year B6 = $138, 11th year B6 = $157.
These tables also show me that I should never become a pilot
And I feel sorry for the FOs, who seem to be severely underpaid.
The big difference is the steepness of the curve: at B6, entry salaries are higher but level off faster, whereas at Spirit entry salaries are low but climb faster.
Example: 1st year Spirit = $71, 11th year Spirit = $141. 1 st year B6 = $138, 11th year B6 = $157.
These tables also show me that I should never become a pilot
And I feel sorry for the FOs, who seem to be severely underpaid.
Last edited by Dieuwer; Jun 14, 2010 at 4:41 pm
#25
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Except that there are mechanisms in place which prevent pilots at Spirit from moving up the ladder at a "normal" pace.
At any rate, as this is a discussion about the effect on jetBlue, it is obvious from the sold out status of most flights on routes where Spirit and jetBlue compete, jetBlue is definitely benefiting this week.
At any rate, as this is a discussion about the effect on jetBlue, it is obvious from the sold out status of most flights on routes where Spirit and jetBlue compete, jetBlue is definitely benefiting this week.
#26
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 519
The Spirit pilots are 100% resolved to see a fair contract. They are the lowest paid in their industry segment and fly into some of the most dangerous airports.
It's not so easy to just go work somewhere else. The average Spirit Captain has 20 years of experience and between 15,000-20,000 hours. The average FO has 10 years of experience and between 8,000-12,000 hours. To get up and go somewhere else (if they were hiring) would mean starting all over at the lowest pay and lowest seniority. They won't do that. They all have plan B established. If the company locks them out and replaces them (which would take a very long time) they are prepared to move on. Good talent never has a problem landing a good job. Spirit is just forgetting to value its good talent.
Also impacted are the rest of the employees--all of whom are standing behind this strike.
Stock prices for JetBlue were speculating about this today. Investors were chomping at the bit hoping for people's livlihoods to be destroyed--nice.
It's not so easy to just go work somewhere else. The average Spirit Captain has 20 years of experience and between 15,000-20,000 hours. The average FO has 10 years of experience and between 8,000-12,000 hours. To get up and go somewhere else (if they were hiring) would mean starting all over at the lowest pay and lowest seniority. They won't do that. They all have plan B established. If the company locks them out and replaces them (which would take a very long time) they are prepared to move on. Good talent never has a problem landing a good job. Spirit is just forgetting to value its good talent.
Also impacted are the rest of the employees--all of whom are standing behind this strike.
Stock prices for JetBlue were speculating about this today. Investors were chomping at the bit hoping for people's livlihoods to be destroyed--nice.
#27
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Oh yeah, the ALPA.
Someone should tell the pilots that the only reason they don't have the option to take their experience to another airline is because their union puts them in a position where their only option to get better pay is to have a union work stoppage. I mean, what if the most experienced pilots at Spirit could get better wages by simply - get this - going to another airline and getting more pay?
Here's an idea: All the pilots at all the airlines can their unions, and then can compete on their merits to work for the airline with the best pay.
#28
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What do you mean by dangerous? Hard to land? Or is there high crime in the area? I would think if it was that bad, Spirit would pull out?
#29
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You have two statements right next to each other that make no sense:
and
So which is it?
So which is it?
#30
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To go from 11 years in with Spirit to 1st year at B6 is only a $3 per hour drop. When you're making $140+/- hour, that's hardly a big drop in pay. However, it would be a lot better to go from say 4 years with Spirit to first year with B6