advice with a July trip to Japan
 

After Air France/Flying Blue announced the devaluation of their Frequent Flyer program last month, I decided to burn most of my remaining FB miles for a summer trip to Asia. My wife’s parents are available to babysit our children then (since the boys are out of school). Of all the possible destinations, Japan seemed like the best blend of someplace new, exotic and interesting. We will arrive in mid-July for an eight night stay. I would love some feedback from the people in this forum to see if I am thinking in the right direction. I have read a lot of the posts in this forum as well as other things on the web and will continue to read, so for now my questions are generally general.

We were thinking of four nights in Tokyo followed by three nights in Kyoto. Is this an OK schedule? There seem to be lots of threads on things to see and do in Tokyo and also days trips from Tokyo, so I will peruse those for further information. For transportation we wanted to go with a JR pass. We thought that we could use the JR pass starting on our second or third day in Tokyo to do a day trip to the Nikko or Hakone. Then to Kyoto. And maybe from there a day trip to Hiroshima. Is that worth seeing or is it too ambitious. In Kyoto we wanted to see if we could stay one night in a ryokan (my guess is that this would probably necessitate skipping Hiroshima). Finally, on the last afternoon we would go Kyoto-Narita and then stay overnight at Narita (our flight back to Paris leaves at 1145 on a weekday). Again, I want input on whether the schedule is too ambitious or if it’s more or less balanced.

We planned to use cash & points to stay at Starwood properties (the Westin Tokyo and the Westin Kyoto) except for one night at a ryokan in/near Kyoto and the Hilton Narita (also on points) the last night. From what I have read on the Starwood forum, the Westin Tokyo is a good hotel (perhaps the best choice/value in the Tokyo area for Starwood). The Kyoto property gets mixed reviews and seems to depend on whether or not one gets an upgraded room. I will pursue those issues further in the Starwood forum. But does anyone have any warings about the location of the Tokyo Westin as a base for sightseeing (using mostly the metro but also JR trains).

As to ryokans, they seem to be all over the map in terms of price and quality. There is a sharp website called ryokancollection.com that has some really nice properties, but they are well over 30,000 yen per person which means over $650 a night for two (half board). We really wanted a nice ryokan with a hot springs (which tends to mean suburban Kyoto and not the center) or at least nice baths but I don’t think I want to spend that much for just one night. There is one place that got good reviews on Trip Advisor that seems affordable and fairly close—the Kurama Onsen. Anybody have a good recommendation for maybe 15,000-20,000 yen person near Kyoto?

I have more questions, but I think that is enough for now, Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with advice.

I think you have a pretty good general itin. If your flight isn't booked, I would consider flying into NRT and out of KIX or ITM so you don't have to backtrack to Tokyo on your way out.

I would think about spending one less day in Tokyo, and then using your railpass to go to Nara and/or Himeji, staying based in Kyoto. Lots of people want to visit Hiroshima, but I think the peace museum is overrated (Nagasaki's is much better). However, Miyajima (just outside of Hiroshima) is worth it.

I think it comes down to the types of things you want to see, and how much you want to be traveling. For history/historical architecture, Kyoto/Nara/Nikko/Himeji. For natural beauty, Miyajima. For modern Japan, Tokyo and Osaka. Of course these are generalizations, but you get the idea.

Nara can be done in a day from Kyoto, and Himeji can be done in less.

Of course, you could have plenty to do in Tokyo alone for a week, but I think you need to leave Tokyo to get a broader sense of "Japan," especially if you don't plan to return.

I also would suggest checking to see if you can change your departure from NRT to KIX. It looks like AF flies from KIX to CDG. If your itinerary is already locked, then you will just have to go all the way back to NRT but if you CAN make the change KIX would simplify things. For example, you could easily make the trip to KIX on the morning of departure directly from your hotel in Kyoto and not have to waste a night at an airport area hotel.

I'd also agree with the above regarding a change to 3 nights in Tokyo and 4 nights in Kyoto. Assuming you cannot make the change to depart from KIX, that last night in Narita makes sense given your relatively early departure time. There are actually some nice things to see and do in Narita City for that last afternoon and evening.

In Kyoto, you will want at least 2 days to see the various sights in the city. More would be better. Also from Kyoto, excellent day trips are quite easy to Nara, Himeji and Osaka. Hiroshima is possible but much further and would not be on my first priority list for someone with only 3 or 4 days in Kansai. You simply will not have enough time to see/do everything.

For your 8 days, I'd suggest the Narita Express+Suica package for the train into Tokyo and the included 1-day subway/local train pass. Activate your JR Rail Pass for the remaining 7 days, using it for the round-trip to Kyoto and all other train travel, including the train back to NRT where you can get the shuttle to your final hotel, or the Haruka airport express from Kyoto to KIX.

One thing to keep in mind - July in Japan will be very, very hot and humid. You should be prepared to move more slowly than you may be accustomed and take more breaks. I'd plan on using cabs/subways/trains more than in other seasons, when I might walk more.

JR

Thanks for the replies. We can change the return from NRT to KIX (flights are available) but it will cost 90 Euros total. If you think it is worth it not to have to backtrack to Tokyo, I will ask AF to do that. It would also give us our fourth day in Kyoto which might make it worth it.

Four nights in Tokyo is really only three days and one of those days would be a day trip to Nikko. So that's only two days to explore all of Tokyo (museums, gardens, shopping etc.) If you think that is too much, we can cut it down. Maybe I figured that Tokyo had a lot to see and do based on the threads here in the forum.

After more reading about ryokans I am considering a side trip to Hanafubuki. On the way to Kyoto. It seems a little out of the way, but with the JR pass it seems doable. Again, the question is whether this should come out of our Tokyo time or our Kyoto time.

How is this for an itinerary?
Tuesday evening arr Tokyo, transfer to the Westin.
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday in Tokyo with one day trip to Nikko
Saturday midday travel to Izukogen (Hanafubuki)
Sunday mid morning Izukogen to Kyoto
Sunday p.m., Monday and Tuesday in Kyoto (side trips to Nara, Himeji) with one night at Kurama Onsen (?) and two (three?) at the Westin
Wednesday fly out of KIX

It looks a bit too ambitious now, especially since, as JR mentioned, it's really hot and humid in July which is something I don't handle well. Maybe we should skip Hanafubuki and just do Kurama. I know you can't decide for me, but I do appreciate input from those who know the lay of the land.

I'm very glad you've taken abmj-jr's advice about the humidity in July to heart, eefor jfp. You will already have a better time in Japan because of it.

How you handle the weather is going to have a huge impact on the kinds of things you'll want to see and do. What might be a pleasant half an hour walk in the Spring or Autumn could be an unendurable ordeal in July, so the sightseeing suggestions I might give for an April trip might be terribly unsuited for a July one. If you are going in the first two weeks of July then I would suggest looking to a dinner at the Ukai Toriyama as they release fireflies into their grounds at this time of the year. You could combine this with the relative cool of Mount Takao, a beautiful area to hike in and a refreshing change from the city.

I have to admit that I have always steered well clear of Japan in the summer, but early June has given me enough of a taster to know how exhausting usual itineraries are. Personally, I'd fill up my days in the city with visits to large museums with climate control and take it very, very easy otherwise. To be honest, I'd probably go North or into the Mountains given the choice. I can deal with 48C temperatures in Madrid, but the humidity of somewhere like Kyoto and Tokyo is not something I can be active in.

Good luck!

Don't let us scare you off. July WILL be warm but you can still have a great time. Just plan on taking things a bit easy.

Most first-timers find that one night in a ryokan is sufficient. Think of it as a destination rather than just lodging. Soak up the relaxation, enjoy the bath and meals. That is why it is often worth hundreds of dollars/euros/pounds for a single night but may not be worth those rates for multiple nights.

If you change the departure to KIX, I think 4 nights Tokyo and 4 nights Kyoto is just about right. You are correct in thinking there is a lot to see and do in Tokyo. There is also a lot to see and do in Kansai, which is why we suggested not shorting your stay there.

To enjoy your visit despite the heat, we often suggest things that will get you out of the heat, at least some of the time. In Tokyo, the Edo-Tokyo museum in Ryogoku is one of my favorites and always seems cool inside. The big sumo stadium is right next door and has an interesting, if tiny, museum attached. The July tournament will be going on in Nagoya in July, so it should be quiet around the Kokugikan in Tokyo. If your dates are between July 12 and July 27, the tournament will be on TV during the late afternoons - 4:00 to 6:00pm and might be something to do while getting out of the heat at your hotel. The broadcast is available in English at most tourist hotels. You mentioned shopping. A big Japanese department store is a destination in itself. A trip to Ginza or Shibuya to visit on of the big ones would be a fun time and air-conditioned. Don't forget to visit the food floor in the basement.

For Tokyo, a day trip to Nikko will get you up in the mountains and out of some of the heat - and is quite beautiful as well. The National Museum in Ueno Park is also climate controlled. For strolling in Asakusa, the Yanaka-Nezu neighborhood or around the Imperial Palace garden, you might think about early mornings. Ginza is nice after the sun has gone down, with all the store displays lit up. If you get lucky, summer is when a lot of local neighborhood matsuri (festivals) are held and might make a nice evening visit. Summer is also when a lot of fireworks displays are fired off over the river. Ask the concierge at your hotel.

In Kyoto, many of the sights you will want to visit are OLD and not air-conditioned. Just pace yourself and go early morning or evening, if possible. Carry coins as there are cold drink vending machines on every corner and staying hydrated will help you to enjoy the visit. The Westin in Kyoto is the old Miyako Hotel. It is nice and located in the shady, park-like eastern area and within short walking distance of some of the nicer attractions. For other areas, I'd splurge on cabs occasionally to get out of the hot buses. In Kyoto, despite the heat, you will probably want to visit some - or most - of the main sites: Sanjusangen-do, Kiyumizu-dera Temple, the Heian Jingu Shrine, Kinkaku-ji (the golden pavillion), Ryoan-ji Temple with the stone garden, Nijo Castle and perhaps the Imperial Palace Park. I don't recommend the Imperial Palace tour unless you have extra time. A day trip to Nara will get you into the hills but not really high enough to beat much of the heat. The main park area in Nara is where the major attractions are located and is shady and relatively cool. Himeji is worth the trip, even though it will be warm. Just go slow and carry cool drinks as you explore the castle.

JR

There's lots see and do in Tokyo, but there's a huge amount to see in the Kansai area (Kyoto, Nara, Kobe, Osaka) and there's actually a helluva lot more to the country than just Tokyo and Kansai.

If you don't like hot and humid weather then perhaps you shouldn't devote so much of your trip to two of the least pleasant heat islands in the country - Tokyo and Kyoto. As a radical revision of your itinerary, you might consider:

Enter Japan at NGO
Train and bus up to Shirakawa-go (thatched house village at high altitude)
Four days in Kyoto (with a trip to Kurama if you like)
Train to Koya san (moutain with many buddhist temples)
Exit from KIX

I don't do well in heat, and Kyoto has to be one of the worst places in the world for it. As Japanese people invariably say when you mention Kyoto heat, Bonchi da kara ("That's because it's in a basin.") I once spent two summer weeks in Kyoto, and when I returned to Tokyo for a day before flying home (many years before KIX), Tokyo actually felt COOL, something I never could have imagined before.

Surrounded by mountains on three sides, Kyoto has high humidity and no discernible air movement. The statement, "It's not the heat; it's the humidity" is very true here.

Two hazards are:

1. Heat exhaustion: If your head starts to hurt and you feel nauseated, find an air conditioned coffee shop or restaurant immediately and drink lots of liquids. (Cola drinks are good for nausea.) If feasible, go back to your hotel, drink some more liquids, and lie down in the air conditioning.

2. Shoe sores, known as kutsuzure in Japanese. The heat will make you want to wear sandals, but the least bit of friction will cause painful chafing. Either wear socks or put large, flexible fabric bandages on the painful spots.

But don't let these warnings put you off Kyoto. It's a great city, especially if you go off the beaten track and explore the little side streets.

Oh, and if you're just mildly overheated and thirsty, Kyoto has great beer gardens along the Kamo River.

You forgot to mention fungal growths...

Thanks again for the replies. I definitely apprecaite the collective wisdom on these boards and am grateful for the regular posters on this forum. I know it must get tiring answering the same questions (or at least similar ones) over and over again yet you do so without grumbling. If you ever decide to visit the Dalmatian coast of Croatia hopefully I can return the favor. I'll have more questions later on if I can't find the answers by doing a search but for now I need to rethink my itinerary and look at hotel availablity online as well as some of the places you mentioned.

With your short time, it may make sense for you not to go to Tokyo. Though it has its attractions, Tokyo is not to Japan as London is to England or as Rome is to Italy -- the really central attraction culturally and historically is the Kyoto/Nara area. The main problem in skipping Tokyo might be that it makes including Nikko more difficult.

Instead of including Tokyo, you might consider going up in the Japanese Alps to the Takayama and Matsumoto area or maybe all the way over to Kanazawa, a very rewarding trip that can be easily done by trains and buses. It will also be cooler up in the mountains.

In Kyoto if using public transportation I found it very useful to stay as close as possible to the central train station -- most of the bus and train transportation converges there.

Another suggestion: find a list of traditional festivals (Matsuri) and see if there are any it would be convenient for you to take in.

In my opinion every human being alive ought to visit the Peace Museum in Hiroshima.

If OP decides to skip Tokyo, then Nikko should be off the program. It's 9 hours round trip from Kansai.

Well, call me contrarian but I don't agree with much of anything in the previous post - except maybe a trip to Kanazawa if you can spare the time.

eefor jfp, I think some of the negative comments have scared you a bit and caused you to regret your decision to visit Japan. Please don't let the discouraging comments dampen your entusiasm and excitement over your visit to one of my favorite places on earth.

A few comments:

You should NOT skip Tokyo, which is one of the largest, most diverse, exciting and vibrant cities in the world. If you anticipate returning to Japan at some future time, you might defer Tokyo (I did for my first visit) but if this is likely your only visit, you should not miss Tokyo.

The remote kougan areas might be cooler but are not what you come to Japan to see. I cannot agree with skipping the fascinating historical and architectural treasures of Kyoto and Nara (and even Tokyo) just to be cooler on top of Mt. Takao or Koya-san. Monasteries, working farms and mountain hiking paths are nice but is that what you come to Japan to see? Those of us who have visited many times are always looking for something else to see and experience and those areas are very nice but first- (only?)- timers really ought to see the major sights. Leave the more obscure or remote areas for later visits. Your snapshots of Ginza at night, Nijo Castle, the Golden Pavillion or one of the many wonderful Japanese gardens will be far more memorable and conversation-worthy than those of yet more rolling hills and trees.

Hiroshima is over-hyped and pretty much designed to make westerners and particualrly Americans feel guilty over something that happened 64 years ago. IMHO not worth a whole day of your limited stay. Nearby Miyajima is very nice but again, not enough to use up all of one of your limited days.

Yes, it will be warm in Japan in July. But it isn't really any worse than the southeast US in July, or the south of France or the Caribbean or Latin America or Thailand or Indonesia, etc, etc. Millions of folks visit and very much enjoy Disney World or Miami Beach or New Orleans or the Gulf Coast or Cancun, or southeast Asia or any of those other places in July and have a great time. Don't let the "glass-half-empty" commentary get you down and regretting your decision to visit Japan on your summer vacation. Just be aware of the problem, make a few adjustments and HAVE A GREAT VISIT. See Tokyo and Kyoto and anyplace else that catches your fancy in the guidebooks.

/Rant off/

JR

i would have to agree that while japan is quite hot in july. it's not as bad as Hong Kong's (or other SE Asian cities) stifling heat during july and august. heat and humidity there is so bad that you can't even breathe.

Um, if you're referring to my post, I must point out that what I actually said was almost the opposite of that.