ginnyfsf

I'm hoping to do the Tateyama-Kurobe "Alpine Route" for my next trip to Japan. (This is a series of trains, buses, and cable cars by which one can go across the mountains from Toyama to Shinano-Omachi.)

Has anyone ever taken this trip? I'm assuming we can drag our lightweight luggage along with us, but does anyone know if there are places along the route so that we could check it for an hour or two to do some walking/hiking? There are various short hiking routes avilable at different points, but I'd rather not have my suitcase rolling along behind me . . .

This would be approximately October 15. The information from JNTO says its usually open until around November, so I'm assuming it would still be passable, but would the weather in mid-October be nice enough for it to actually be enjoyable?

Any other wisdom regarding this activity?

LapLap

We didn't have enough time in our own itinerary to consider doing this route when I took my own family to this area last October (and the costs seemed prohibitive too - I don't think the JR pass covers most of the fares).

As long as you go at the start of October the weather should be fine - but on the chilly side with periodic rain falls.

JR won't be able to inform you about lockers if you enquire directly (queries in English go to their NY office - I've already tried!). DELETED - was in a hurry when I wrote this.

Also, it's possible that the timetables may be reduced for October.

My advice is to go at the start of October, not at the end. And leave a degree of flexibility in your itinerary in case of monsoons (which will wreak chaos on the train timetables).

Good luck!

jpatokal

Japanese lockers are tiny but deep: I've had fairly good luck squeezing full-size backpacks into them, but few would accept even my rollaboard. The few times that my bag and locker size have been manifestly mismatched, I've asked the station staff to look after it and, after initial consternation and consulting with The Manager, have always succeeded. Keyword: Ookisugiru, lit. "it's too big".

Bigger stations have left luggage counters, but out in the mountains these are unlikely.

jib71

Here's the official website for all the transport links etc. on this trip:
http://www.alpen-route.com/

There's a tonne of information in Japanese only on the FAQ:
http://www.alpen-route.com/inf1-inquiry.html#

I'm putting ome snippets from the FAQ here in English to answer your questions (and maybe raise a host more):

Foliage
The foliage will turn to Autumn colours roughly:
Mid-September: at altitudes over 3000m
Late-September: around Murodo Daira / Daikanbo / Danbo Daira
Early October: around Midagahara
Mid October: around Kurobe Dam / Ogizawa
Late-October: around Bijodaira / Hyugasan Kogen
Early-November: around Tateyama station

With so much gorgeous foliage, you can be pretty sure that mid-October is going to be a very popular time to visit this area. So make your reservations in advance - and (if possible) travel on a weekday rather than a weekend to avoid crowds.

Clothes to wear:
http://www.alpen-route.com/bsc2-accout.html

Left Luggage Facilities
In all stations along the route there are coin lockers for hand luggage. If there are no available coin lockers, the station office can hold your luggage for a time.

There is also a luggage delivery service. If you are staying at hotels on either side of the route, you can have your bags delivered from the first hotel to the other side - whilst you make the trip over the hills with your hands free:
The following is a list of the hotels that can do this for you:
http://www.alpen-route.com/bsc2-recomm3.html


Final note - I've seen this journey in guidebooks etc. but always figured that the whole chebang was set up in order to showcase the Japanese river-damming and concreting industry (Kurobe dam is some kind of national monument to the power of Japanese construction over the forces nature). But maybe I'm missing out on a wonderful trip through the mountains on some really cool trains and things... please post a trip report here and let us know if it's a worthwhile trip.

ginnyfsf

Thanks for all the wonderful answers--I had found some of the information, but not all.

Except for the for the little bit of train from Toyama to Tateyama, this is not JR on rail pass--there's a special ticket that covers everything together. It's fairly expensive (7000+ yen?) but I figure it's a special thing. The scenery looks nice in pictures I've seen, and the cable cars and related kinds of transport looked fun.

I'll post a report if I pull it off.

jib71

I mentioned this to Mrs. jib and a friend from Taiwan - and they liked the look of it so we went on Friday night - left from Shinjuku station at 11.54pm on the "Moonlight Shinano" train, which appears to run only on Friday nights at certain times of year. It's not a sleeper train and it does not qualify as an express, so it's pretty darn cheap (5130yen for a seat in standard class). We made reservations in the green car. Similar feeling to taking a trans-con red-eye in business class. Arrived at 05.08am at Shinano Omachi. (Too early - the first bus is at 06.30am - except in the mid-Summer).

Some notes from the trip across the mountains. The price is rather steep - more than 9000yen for the whole trip. Apparently the main cost is the snow clearing for the bus journeys at high altitudes. They certainly do a good job of it. Apparently they spent about 100million yen (1 Oku) on snow clearing this year.

Kurobe Dam
The first bit of the journey was rather "odd" for me - Kurobe dam is indeed a monument to Japan's industrial might. It's incredible that 171 people gave their lives in the construction of it. I couldn't help wondering "Was it worth it?" Miyuki Nakajima music blared out from the loudspeakers of the coffee concession overlooking the dam - just to remind us that this heroic feat was featured in an "X-Japan" TV documentary. (The construction was also the theme of a feature film - must check that out one day).

Observations on luggage and walking
As far as I could tell, the most interesting hiking areas seem to be between Murodo and Bijodaira. Not so much walking on the Kurobe dam side - but the views from the cable car and the Daikanbo station are spectacular.

There are indeed coin lockers at Murodo station (directly beneath the Tateyama hotel) and some some other stops on the way down the mountain. One 400yen locker was enough for all of our stuff (three day-packs). But Tateyama even had 500yen lockers which are tall enough for the very largest backpacks. Width, though is a different matter. A wide hard-shell suitcase might be too big.

The other thing to consider is that there is not much storage space for your stuff on the buses / cable cars / ropeways. We were unable to put our small backpacks into the luggage space above the seats on the buses. So they sat on our knees.

Murodo
Murodo was fun - at 2400+m altitude, it's as high as you will go on this trip, unless you do some serious hiking uphill.... You can see a number of skiers hiking in that direction at this time of year. (Skis strapped to their backpacks). That looks tough!

There was too much snow on the ground for us to walk around easily, so we stumbled across a short stretch of walking path to the onsen (highest altitude of any onsen in Japan) and had a wickedly hot bath there. The hot water comes from "jigoku ga dani" which has jets of sulphurous gas spewing out from it - You can't walk close to Jigokugadani in the winter. But they allow people to go right up to the bubbling pools in Mid-summer. We also watched some ptarmigans and their new-born hopping around. Their feathers are turning from white to brown now - in preparation for the summer. (This is how these land-based birds protect themselves from birds of prey and other predators). When the snow melts, there are a couple of beautiful trails around some small lakes up there.

Walls of snow
Coming down the mountain by bus, the walls of snow are pretty impressive - (Usually the bus travels between 15meter high walls of snow near Murodo. This year the walls were as high as 19meters. Even now, they're still 13 meters).

Midagahara
We stopped at Midagahara - but that was still very snow-covered, so we gave up on our plans to hike around there. Usually it's walkable by now... shame. So we gave up on our plans to walk around Midagahara. Just had lunch there and got back on the bus. I asked the hotel staff there what conditions would be like in October - they said it usually does not snow until near the end of October. So maybe you will be fine on Oct 15.

Bijodaira offered much better prospects for walking. Beautiful path through the woods with some huge cedar trees. (Some snow in patches on the ground even here). It's somewhat slippery in places, but not terribly steep. Not a difficult trail.

The food on this route took me by surprise - It was appetizing and surprisingly varied. I was expecting the typical fare that you find at most Japanese ski-resorts (curry-rice, more curry-rice, ramen and more ramen) but there were all kinds of snacks - steamed buns and baked potatos and the like, and some pretty decent (if somewhat pricey) restaurants.

Since we started so early, we found that we were ahead of the crowds for much of the trip. On our way down, we saw that this mountain does get really crowded when the tour groups are coming through. Probably the cable car is the most crowded journey of all - and you might have to wait in line for a while if you want to do that at peak holiday times - or on a weekend at the peak of the autum foliage season.

I would definitely advise starting this trip early in the day (and on a weekday rather than a weekend) for this reason.

We made it to Toyama by about 4.30pm. Toyama turns out to be a more attractive town than I had expected. (Love any town with trams). Did not have time to explore it, though, since we were on our way to Tonami (where we stayed the night).

From there we went to Gokayama, which was nice (but I prefered Shirakawa go - which is touristy but has more buildings, and bigger buildings). But that's another story. Took a flight back from Toyama to Haneda this evening.

If you're planning to do the trip from the Toyama side, l guess it might be ok to go as far as Murodo and then come back down the same way you went. That might save you from carrying your luggage on all the trip up the mountain - and you probably won't regret not seeing Kurobe dam if you're like me.

ginnyfsf

Wow, thanks for the great report! You pretty much answered all my questions, and then some. You answered all the kind of things that it's hard to find out beforehand. I especially appreciate your evaluation of the hiking opportunities--the tourist info is so neutral that it makes it hard to figure out what's really best. The info on the food is excellent--just the kind of stuff I like. I'll print this and keep it with my trip planning stuff.

I was in Toyama before, at cherry blossom time, and it is quite a nice little city--nothing spectacular from the tourist point of view, but it has the trams you mention, and quite a long length of canal (or walled-in river--I can't remember what it is technically). There's also a castle that's very photogenic at night, and these little caramel cream puff things in the train station that are the best thing I ever ate . . . It makes a nice half-day stop if you just want to be in a "normal" small city. At cherry blossom time there are the typcial flood lights at night and consessions in the park and office picnics along the canal/river--I spent several hours wandering in and out among all the celebrations.

phaleesy

We're doing this trip in October this year and I came across this thread!

A couple of questions:

1. We aim to take the first or second bus from Shinano-Omachi, therefore we only need a budget/moderate place to crash out for the night. There are a couple of expensive mountain resorts/onsens in the region and that's not what we really need.

We're booked at a budget Toyoko Inn in Toyama but don't seem to have any luck with Shinano-Omachi. Any suggestions?

2. Would we need to buy the tickets in advance and where from?

Thanks in advance for your help!

LapLap

There's http://www.kurobeview.co.jp/. It runs an hourly shuttle service from Shinano Omachi with the last bus leaving at 17:30 - but you should be able to walk there within 20 minutes.

weekdays from 15th Sep to 27th Oct the price is 14,900Yen per adults (when two are sharing) - Friday & Saturday it's 17,000Yen

Price does include 2 meals though

(Sorry, I saw the 10,700Yen price which was an internet special offer for earlier in the year)


THIS MIGHT BE WHAT YOU ARE AFTER

http://www.dia.janis.or.jp/~kuri_net...nformation.htm
Lodging here seems to cost from ￥4,800 per person
"Hayashiya. We're Japanese style (B&B Style) hotel.
Located in front of JR Shinano Ohmachi Station and very convenient for city sightseeing and business. There is it from JR Shinano Ohmachi Station to 3 minute."

jib71

I recall seeing several budget inns in the area near the station. A few possibilities are listed here:
http://www.jalan.net/a/yado/160000/STA_012654.html

You could also stay in Matsumoto (much livelier) then catch the 6.02am train and be in Shinano Omachi at 7.01am. That would miss the first bus, but it's still quite early.

I suggest reserving a different hotel in Toyama because I don't like Toyoko's corporate values, which include:
- violating building codes (e.g. fire extinguisher equipment) - to increase profits
- failing to provide disabled facilities as required by law - to increase profits
- discriminating against gay couples - because they don't like gay men sleeping together I suppose

There are plenty of budget end choices in Toyama. Comfort Hotel, APA hotel etc. etc.

Another idea would be to go as far as Kanazawa, which is a more celebrated tourist destination with a famous garden (Kenrokuen) and other cultural attractions.

No need for advance purchase for the route over the moutains. You can buy your tickets at Shinano Omachi station.

phaleesy

This is exactly what I'm after! LapLap, you're a :-:!

I've just sent them an email. Hope they would understand the kiddie japanese.

Update: Happy days. I've just received confirmation of the yoyaku!

phaleesy

We're moving north from Matsumoto to Hotaka (Dai-o Wasabi Farm - http://www.daiowasabi.co.jp/top.htm) during the day. So it makes more sense moving further up the JR Oito line towards Shinano-Omachi.

Besides, the closer we are to the final destination, the longer we can stay in bed that morning.

Thanks, jib71. I have cancelled the reservation at Toyoko in Toyama. I'm now awaiting confirmation from a ryokan in Takaoka.

The plan now is to rent a car from Takaoka. Drive along route 156 to Gokayama and Shirakawa-go.

Kanazawa and her famous garden would be another trip.

phaleesy

jib71, your trip report is very detailed and helpful! ^

A couple of questions (again! )
1. Did you notice if there were lockers in Midagahara?

2. Is the onsen in Murodo called Mikurigaike? I don't think it could have been the Jigokudani onsen you had a dip in!

3. How do I reserve a seat on the bus from Midagahara? It's stated in the transport information that we need to reserve a seat from a way station such as Midagahara or Tengudaira?

4. I came across two recommended walking routes (in Murododaira and Midagahara) from the JNTO website. However, they're not really detailed. Would I be able to get hold of more detailed routes/maps at the destinations?

5. Would like to get to Shomyodaki waterfalls. The only info I found is that it takes '20 minutes by bus from Toyama Chiho Tetsudo Railway Tateyama Station. Get off at the terminal bus stop and walk 20 minutes.' No further info on bus time-tables etc. on the official alpine website. Have you come across any of the info during your travels? If not, I'd email or call JNTO when I'm in Tokyo.

Thanks in advance for your help!

jib71

I didn't see any there. But there are a couple of buildings (including a hotel where we had lunch). Probably possible to leave a day pack.

Yes - Mikurigaike Onsen.
http://www.mikuri.com/

The hot water is piped from the Jigokudani.

Other onsen on the route are listed here:
http://www.rurubu.com/onsen/list.asp?SubAreaCD=1603


When you get on the bus at the top of the mountain, you will tell the staff that you're getting off at one of the intermediary stops. At that time, the staff ask you to specify the time and place from which you want to be picked up by a later bus. Basically, most buses are completely full when they leave from the top of the mountain - so the staff need to know which bus they need to leave some space on.

What happens if you miss the bus that you reserved space on? I'm not sure. There are staff with walkie talkies at the intermediary stops, so I presume they can call to the top of the mountain and instruct their colleagues to leave some open seats on a subsequent bus. In this instance, you may find that you have to wait a bit.

I bought a guide book with basic hiker trail maps in Tokyo.
IIRC, there were also maps on sale at some of the shops on the mountain - I'm pretty sure they were available at the Mikurigaike Onsen lodge. (The lodge also sold some hiking gear at inflated prices - fleeces, socks, boots, spats etc).

"Toyama Chiho Tetsudo Railway Tateyama Station" is just the full name for Tateyama station - the terminus of the Alpen Route bus that descends from the top of the mountain.
It seems that the bus from there to the waterfall (or 20 minutes hike from the waterfall) is also run by the same company as the Tateyama Alpen route. So you might be able to get the timetable if you fax them a request (in simple English):

Tateyama Kurobe Sales Head Office
TELEPHONE +81-76-432-2819, FAX +81-76-442-3431
Address : 2-34, Inarisonomachi, Toyama-City, Japan

I'd say you'll probably have more luck with them than with JNTO.

phaleesy

Thanks for answering all the questions so patiently, jib71.

I have taken your advice and delegated the task of faxing the bus company to the boss!