lsquare

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tra...r-credit-cards

​​​​​​​Could this finally be the end of Suica and Pasmo for foreigners? Could Tokyo be like London and Singapore where I can just tap my credit card to ride the subway?

angetenar

Suica and Pasmo have uses beyond the subway but this would indeed be nice.

lsquare

Oh, for sure, but this would be a very good development for foreigners.

bpe

Nankai railway (southern Osaka, including Kansai airport) has been doing this for several months now, maybe longer although I don't remember when the trial started.
It does not seem very popular although I did try it once myself out of curiosity. It's a different card reader on only one or two ticket gates, and it takes about 2 seconds to read the card rather than almost instantly for the regular ICOCA/IC cards. That would be a big hit in throughput if thousands of people used it over IC cards or paper tickets.

A big selling point of the IC cards for everyone but especially tourists is that they are fully compatible with basically all trains (and buses) throughout greater Tokyo as well as other large metro areas in Japan. Unless this is rolled out across all stations and connecting railroads with good signage, you will have to either look up or take your chances on whether or not it's compatible with where you are going, such as across Tokyo Metro/Toei or Keisei or Keikyu to the airport and so on.

lsquare

There is definitely a speed difference. It�s noticeable. However, I don't hear anyone say scrap the system in London or Singapore.

bpe

I don't remember how fast the Oyster card is in London or what the system in Singapore is like, but if tap to pay is as fast as or better than the current system (such as comparing to the NYC metro card), it's not really a problem.

But if the new technology is slower than the current one, it will mess up people's routines and probably won't be widely adopted. Even using the paper tickets in Japan is significantly faster than tap to pay.

lsquare

I meant credit card.

AlwaysAisle

This is one of the big reasons JR companies and other rail companies in Tokyo, Osaka, and Nagoya did not use the credit card tap system.

JR East introduced Suica in 2001. When JR East was looking for a cashless touch system, the credit card tap system was not widely used among credit card companies yet, but the system itself existed. JR East knew back then that the speed of the credit card tap system would not work in major stations in Tokyo, Osaka, or Nagoya. If you see the volume of flow of people during rush hours in Tokyo, Shinjuku, Shinagawa, Umeda, Namba, or Nagoya, the credit card tap system is too slow. JR East needed the system when a passenger taps the card at the ticket gate, the information goes to the mainframe system, a decision of go/no go to be made, the information is sent back to the ticket gate, and the ticket gate will open or close the gate. All these have to take place in 0.3-0.2 seconds to keep the flow of people going during rush hours. JR East knew the credit card tap system is too slow that during rush hours it will start back up people all the way to the platform of the station.

JR East looked into Sony's IC card system FeliCa and Sony's system did provide the speed of response JR East was looking for, which became Suica. Rail companies in Japan were always looking at the credit card tap system, but the speed of the system was the major reason hesitated to use the credit card tap system.

sharktums

Totally agree that in the past it wouldn't have worked, but using the tap system in London and NYC this summer it's pretty instantaneous when using my phone to tap. I would love to see Japan switch to this system, especially as they seem to be limiting the Suica/Pasmo cards now.

ithinkurdumb

We�ve been using JCB cards on Nankai for the past two months to take advantage of the 50% cash back. The card readers are not only available at a few gates, on large stations with dozens of exits, some exits might not even have any credit card-compatible gate. In addition, there seems to be some stability issue. Probably 1-2 out of 10 times the reader would fail and we had to use a different reader or get the staff to help.

paperwastage

Just curious,
Does suica/pasmo/Japan IC run online mode only, or offline possible?

Just thinking about all those vending machines, and equipment/cost difference of needing an always-on connection (credit card authorization) if suica allows offline (so vending machines didn't necessarily need Internet connection for low value transactions).


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AlwaysAisle

Yes, Suica can run offline (not connected to the mainframe database) using edge server. Original design of Suica system is the center server, which is the mainframe computer, connected to the edge server at stations. Where the edge server is connected to the ticket gate machines at the station. The center server and edge servers are connected with the network called JR-IP net which is different network than the internet connection used on cell phones and computers. If the JR-IP net connection between the center server and edge servers are disconnected, ticket gate machines will still process Suica with the edge server in the station.

However, I read that newer version coming out past few years has ticket gate machines connected to the center server directly via JR-IP net. Under this setting, if the connection via JR-IP net is down then the ticket gate machine will not process Suica. Not sure how vending machine and convenience stores are set up to accept Suica.

FindingFoodFluency

Good news (and even better news for accruing points).
Glad Fukuoka already has the option, and that the concept is spreading.

Curious ... the NFC cards (e.g. Suica, Pasmo) get a small discount on trains. Perhaps this wouldn't be the same for credit cards?

bpe

Some lines now have IC card readers in the trains themselves, which I imagine would not have a stable network connection in some places, if at all. Would that mean each of those trains has its own edge server that gets synchronized with the main one every night or every so often?

The balance is definitely accessible from the card itself without any need for a connection to a central server, unlike a credit (or even debit) card.

The discount is really just due to rounding, so it's going to be 9 yen at the very most but in some cases the IC cards actually cost slightly more than paper tickets. I don't see why a credit card wouldn't get the same discount although of course we have to wait and see what Tokyo metro decides. And the rounding policy is determined by company, so it currently only applies on JR East and a handful of private railways in Kanto, nothing in the west.

AlwaysAisle

I looked for information about IC card readers (Suica readers) on the train. However, I could not find the information so I am writing this from my memory. Please excuse that part.

If you are talking about IC card readers in the trains, such as Suica readers in the Green Car of local commuter trains. My understanding is that those Suica readers in the Green Car of local commuter trains are not connected to the central server, and the trains themselves do not carry anything elaborate as an edge server.

My understanding is that Suica readers in the Green Car work like this. Passengers are required to buy a Green Car ticket prior to boarding the train using Suica, using a Green Car ticket machine on a platform, or a ticket machine at a concourse. For Mobile Suica, purchase a Green Car ticket using a cell phone. Once a Green Car ticket is purchased, then the Green Car ticket information is stored in individual Suica cards. Once onboard, tap the Suica card against the Suica Card reader on the train, then the Suica Card reader on the train will acknowledge that your Suica card has a Green Car ticket and allow you to sit in the Green Car. Same time the Suica Card reader on the train will code your Suica card that the Green Car ticket has been used so that you will not be able to use Green Car on another train later. All these processes do not require Suica readers on the train to be connected to the central server.

However, JR East has announced that by 2027 they are planning to switch the current Suica system to a Cloud system, where each Suica reader will be connected directly to the central server and there will be no more edge servers. The new ticket gate machines have already been designed that way, as posted previously. JR East is saying that the Cloud system will allow more flexibility to use discounts and special fares via Suica. If that is the case, then I wonder if JR East is also planning to have Suica card readers on trains to be connected to the central server via Wi-Fi connection or something similar. If such is the case then that will eliminate the need to purchase a Green Car ticket prior to boarding using a Suica card. All you need to do will be tap your Suica card against the Suica Card reader in the Green Car. The Suica Card reader onboard the train will communicate with the central server, acknowledge that you have enough balance for the Green Car ticket, deduct an appropriate amount from your Suica balance, and you will be allowed to sit at Green Car.