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Originally Posted by mcgahat
(Post 34671866)
You definitely got that!
Really sorry for all the trouble and I don't really see how you could have done much better than you did. The Japanese entry program was stupid from the start and unfortunately you got the short end of it.
Originally Posted by findark
(Post 34671895)
Given that you had a document that looked like a visa, and so far it sounds like no one in this thread has determined conclusively what the problem was, I'm not surprised that UA let you board.
UA does attempt to check the validity of visas and documents, but it is an obligation to themselves because they face the burden of removing you from Japan and can also be fined by the Japanese government for delivering inadmissible pax. I would absolutely say you had an extremely rare experience - 99% of the time someone without the correct documents for entry will be caught by UA and denied boarding at their origin. In a sense, you could say that UA messed up too, but they don't have a contractual obligation to you here - UA messed up, and they paid for their mistake by having to take you back from Japan, and they may get in trouble with Japan. On the heels of Japan's Covid policy widely understood by political observers to have ulterior motives finally coming to an end, they should do what immigration control authorities in countries around the world frequently do, exercise discretion, common sense, and dare I say it, as this is Japan, some human compassion. Instead, they appeared to gleefully use the letter of the law as cover to deal with a foreigner in the most heavy handed way possible. Had imprisoning her been an option not risking what I understand to be their already shaky ground within the visa exemption agreement with the US, I think they might've done that. |
I'm curious - it certainly seems that the Japanese tour operator is the one at fault. I would agree that UA is not in a position to guarantee the efficacy of Japanese visas, only that you had something that appeared to be a visa on its face, and so is not at fault.
But what has the tour operator offered to do? Have you asked them for compensation? It seems they should be the ones responsible. |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34671714)
I purchased a rather expensive concert piano for my home. The final construction of the instrument is completed by one master craftsman sort of like an AMG engine in a Mercedes. They only make 3 or 4 of this model for the world each year. The salesman suggested that if I ever went to Japan they could arrange a private factory tour for me as a token of appreciation. They also create a bronze plaque with the name of people who buy this model and place on a wall in the factory. It took several months to arrange all this since the factory was still recovering from their COVID lockdowns. My son has no interest in pianos, so I promised him a day at Tokyo Disney if he would accompany me to the tour. I work as an ER doctor and my schedule has yet to return to anything sane, so besides having some bonding time for my son and I, it was going to be a nice respite from the 60-80 hrs work weeks. I'm sad to hear that it will be more difficult to re-enter Japan going forward, because it was something of great interest to us.
Just to add some commentary regarding another poster’s claim that the factory tour was a form of tourism, many immigration departments, including the USA, would consider visiting a factory to be a form of business intent even if we know that it’s really not. It’s just a risk when dealing with very difficult immigration departments who have wide latitude in interpreting a visitor’s intent, so asking the right questions beforehand is essential. I just wanted to make sure this topic did not come up in the OP’s interaction with this particular immigration inspector. |
Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 34672024)
If the topic of the piano tour did not come up in your interaction, then I really have no idea what happened here, except an error by the tour company in your visa application or by the agency that issued the visa. I would suggest pushing the tour company to get to the bottom of this and involving your local consulate as needed to make sure your next entry goes smoothly.
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 34672024)
Just to add some commentary regarding another poster’s claim that the factory tour was a form of tourism, many immigration departments, including the USA, would consider visiting a factory to be a form of business intent even if we know that it’s really not. It’s just a risk when dealing with very difficult immigration departments who have wide latitude in interpreting a visitor’s intent, so asking the right questions beforehand is essential. I just wanted to make sure this topic did not come up in the OP’s interaction with this particular immigration inspector. The visa requirement is entirely part of temporary covid restrictions and if anything, business trips were given deference under those temporary requirements where tourism was not. So in 30 hours, no visa would've been required in either case. Again, discretion could've been easily exercised, but, you know, not all are pleased at the return of gaigin to Japan's pristine land. |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34671762)
I had contacted the Japanese consulate in Houston and they replied a couple of months ago that all tourist visas needed to be done through a tour group. The tour guide I hired agreed to obtain the visa on my behalf. About a week after supplying her with all the necessary demographic information she emailed me my "visa," as a .pdf form. I could not have applied for a tourist visa on my own even if I had wanted to based on their restrictions.
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Originally Posted by Ghoulish
(Post 34672084)
There is no difference in a short term business trip or tourist status for US travelers to Japan and vice versa under an agreement with with United States.
The visa requirement is entirely part of temporary covid restrictions and if anything, business trips were given deference under those temporary requirements where tourism was not. So in 30 hours, no visa would've been required in either case. Again, discretion could've been easily exercised, but, you know, not all are pleased at the return of gaigin to Japan's pristine land. So now it seems possible that the OP received the electronic approval but did not go forward with actually applying for the e-visa online, but that theory I believe would depend on when the trip was booked. IIRC, when Japan initially “opened”, only supervised tours were allowed from designated vendors who took care of the entire process including getting the visa issued. So question for the OP - did you have an actual visa embossed in your passport or can you post a copy of what you presented to immigration with your personal details redacted? Maybe someone knowledgeable here can recognize what happened. |
Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 34672162)
So now it seems possible that the OP received the electronic approval but did not go forward with actually applying for the e-visa online, but that theory I believe would depend on when the trip was booked. IIRC, when Japan initially “opened”, only supervised tours were allowed from designated vendors who took care of the entire process including getting the visa issued.
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Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34672038)
Yes, relied on the tour guide and they failed to fulfill what they promised. They offered to refund me $1000 of the tour package for their mistake. The tour guide also informed me that I may be banned from the re-entering Japan for a period of time to be determined because of this error. I am waiting to hear how long that might be.
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Based on bad advice, I showed up at the British Virgin Islands with improper documents by boat. I had an Enhanced Driver’s license because I was told they were a member of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and they weren’t. They lectured me, I gave them a puppy eyes apology and was paroled in.
Japan and Australia are the two difficult allies. Australia will try to work through the problem but their anti-immigration policies have had the spillover effect of stripping border agent’s of granting discretionary admissions which their counterparts in other countries have. British notions of procedural fairness soften the blow a little, but don’t go far enough. Japan is also problematic on criminal inadmissibility. In theory, there is no discretionary waivers even for very old criminal offenses even which have been expunged or pardoned. How Paul McCartney gets into Japan demonstrates there is an exception for the very rich and connected, but they will deny it until the cows come home. |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34671692)
she replied that the visa was appropriately filled out but she had not filed it with the correct authorities.
This is such an unfortunate set of circumstances, and I'm sorry to hear it. It sounds like you did everything you thought you needed to: you first contacted the consulate, who told you you needed a Japanese tour operator to arrange for things. You did so, and relied on them to do the paperwork, not knowing the distinction between an ERFS certificate and a visa. And, the airline didn't catch it. Had you been following the thread here on FT on such matters, you probably would have caught it, but you were probably doing more important things, like saving your patients' lives. So, now you have a deportation record in Japan, |
Originally Posted by Lux Flyer
(Post 34671802)
I've tried really hard to avoid replying in this thread as I have some further thoughts on the matter, but I'm going to keep it limited.
But unfortunately "what would have been the case in less than 2 days" doesn't matter. Its the regulations that are in effect on the specified date/time, not what it's going to be. Do we also say to the airlines "well this fare in less than 2 days after I want to fly is $500 cheaper, so just give it to me on the day I want?" or "in less than 2 days I don't need a VISA, so just let me fly today without showing I've obtained a VISA" :rolleyes: And the OP already told us where they have already identified where fault lies for this situation So that being said, I'm really confused why this is related to United at all, continues to be discussed in the UA forum and whether they were right or wrong in the situation, beyond the fact that they were the carrier who was transporting the passenger. This is ultimately a VISA/immigration issue and the situation would have been the same regardless if it was UA, AA, DL or even ANA who transported the passenger. Except they might have actually charged the passenger the cost of the airfare for the return. If anything OP should be grateful they didn't have any more out of pocket expenses for what was a massive mistake, as they have indicated, by their tour agency.
Originally Posted by fimo
(Post 34672142)
I'm wondering if that pdf form was not a visa - but the ERFS that allows you to apply for a visa from the Japanese embassy/consultate. It sounds like you possibly missed the most important step of getting a visa issued in your passport. There might have been some misunderstanding in what the Houston consulate told you - they're not wrong that tourist visas are done through a tour group, but unless you handed your passport over to the tour agency and delegated them the authority to apply for a visa with the consulate and embassy using the ERFS, then you only had the first step completed. The consulate's message is probably that you cannot directly apply for a visa without an agency/business providing you the ERFS.
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Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34672038)
Yes, relied on the tour guide and they failed to fulfill what they promised. They offered to refund me $1000 of the tour package for their mistake. The tour guide also informed me that I may be banned from the re-entering Japan for a period of time to be determined because of this error. I am waiting to hear how long that might be.
Is the travel agent saying that the visa application wasn't filed with *any* Japanese government agency or that it was filed but it was filed with the wrong agency? Could there have been miscommunication (does the travel agent have good English, assuming you used a travel agent in Japan?) with the travel agent sending you a document that you needed to use to get a visa but the travel agent not explaining this to you? Could it be that the travel agent doesn't understand the process at all and is inexperienced in dealing with foreigners who need visas (under the now out-of-date rules)? Were you instructed to show the emailed "visa document" to your airline and to border officials? Did the travel agent send you something in Japanese or in English or both? Did the document say "VISA"? |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34672038)
The tour guide also informed me that I may be banned from the re-entering Japan for a period of time to be determined because of this error. I am waiting to hear how long that might be.
I am not sure what happened to you but it seems to me that you were "denied entry" rather than "deported." Getting deported happens, for example, when people overstay their visas or get caught in violation of the terms of their visas. In such cases, they are typically prohibited from entering to Japan for some time. If you were denied entry because of an error in documentation you may find that you are free to enter Japan when you have satisfactory documentation. As of today (October 11) there is no longer a visa requirement, so the documentation requirements are minimal. Of course, you should check with a Japanese embassy. Speaking from personal experience of having been denied entry to Canada over 20 years ago - It has not prevented me from visiting and even working there, but it does mean that I get called for secondary interview when I arrive. That's inconvenient and time consuming but not disastrous. I think that there are two points that you need to deal with: 1) Establish what happened and what was at fault with your documentation You need to establish what was wrong with the documentation that you had. It's possible that the agent made an error in the application. In that case, I think it's likely that you can get some compensation from the agent. (I am not a lawyer). It's also possible that the agent issued you with the certificate for ERFS registration, which you were required to take to a Japanese embassy to get a visa issued. In that case it may be difficult to establish who is at fault. Were you instructed to get on the plane with just the certificate? 2) Establish whether you are subject to any restriction on entry to Japan First of all, I think you need to clear up the confusion about what happened (see point 1 above) and then discuss the matter with a Japanese embassy or consulate. I presume that you received some paperwork when you were sent back to the US? Keep it all to document what happened,. I hope that you can recover quickly from the trauma and that you soon get clarity on what went wrong and what you can do about it. I feel optimistic that you will be able to visit Japan again soon. |
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
(Post 34672444)
The airlines can't really charge the customer for the return because they weren't the ones requesting the transportation. If anything, the airline would charge the government of Japan because they were the ones demanding the passenger be put on the plane.
Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language. Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr) Subject to applicable laws and regulations, the passenger agrees to pay the applicable fare whenever Carrier, on government order, is required to return a passenger to his point of origin or elsewhere due to the passenger's inadmissibility into or deportation from a country, whether of transit or of destination. The fare applicable will be the fare that would have been applicable had the original ticket designated the revised destination on the new ticket Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2) Subject to applicable laws and regulations, the passenger agrees to pay the applicable fare whenever carrier, on government order, is required to return a passenger to his point of origin or elsewhere due to the passenger's inadmissibility into or deportation from a country, whether of transit or of destination. The fare applicable will be the fare that would have been applicable had the original ticket designated the revised destination on the new ticket.
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
(Post 34672444)
Besides, there might not have been a charge anyway considering they would (likely) have a credit for canceling their original return.
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Originally Posted by Lux Flyer
(Post 34672499)
Do we pretend the contract of carriage doesn't exist or that somehow it's not being agreed to when we purchase a ticket?
Rule 19 from United's (posted in the 2nd reply of this thread) clearly indicates the passenger is agreeing to pay the applicable fare for being returned on government order. And United isn't the only one with this language. Delta in Rule 16b of their contract of carriage (https://www.delta.com/us/en/legal/co...f-carriage-igr) Similarly in AA's contract of carriage (https://www.aa.com/content/images/ta...nal-tariff.pdf), rule 45b(2) And no, that's not a mistake that the quotes are exactly the same, all the carriers use the exact same language with regards to this situation. I won't quote the United contract of carriage since it was previously posted, but yes it is the exact same language too if you don't want to look back at that post. My gut is this is standard language published by IATA and you will find it on every airline that has an international tariff. Yes they could have a credit for the return, since this was hopefully a round trip, and that would likely be applied. But if the fare had a Saturday night stay or other minimum stay requirement, which a good majority of international round trip do unless they are unrestricted fares, that was no longer being met, the airline could come back on that front too. Basically the rule in each of them allows the airline, at their discretion, to charge the applicable fare for what is actually flown because that is what the passenger is agreeing to allow them to do by accepting the contract of carriage and choosing to fly on the airline. |
Originally Posted by JimInOhio
(Post 34672521)
Trying to extract even more money from a customer, who's already paid many thousands, in this situation is a losing proposition for any airline. It's probably why I've never personally heard of an airline actually going ahead with such a boneheaded move.
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I have never had to apply for a visa for entering Japan. Since when was this a requirement?
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Originally Posted by TokyoFoodie
(Post 34672588)
I have never had to apply for a visa for entering Japan. Since when was this a requirement?
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Originally Posted by TokyoFoodie
(Post 34672588)
I have never had to apply for a visa for entering Japan. Since when was this a requirement?
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Originally Posted by Dubai Stu
(Post 34672264)
Based on bad advice, I showed up at the British Virgin Islands with improper documents by boat. I had an Enhanced Driver’s license because I was told they were a member of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and they weren’t. They lectured me, I gave them a puppy eyes apology and was paroled in.
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I think this has already been mentioned but the tour agency could not have applied for the visa on OPs behalf. They would have had to either go to the consulate, or apply for an eVisa themselves. Since that did not happen, my bet is the tour guide sent the ERFS but no actual visa was issued as I am not sure what other PDF the tour agency could have even sent to remotely be confused for a visa.
That being the case, I don't believe the tour guide is necessarily at fault here, and all parties have some degree of culpability: Japan authorities for perhaps not being more clear that an ERFS is not a visa (the US usually writes this on official documents so as to avoid confusion), OP for not looking into the requirements more thoroughly, and United for letting them board with just an ERFS. |
OP, I am deeply sorry you experienced this. It sounds like you have a strong reverence for Japan (judging by your piano selection) and intended to honor all of the (former) egregious entry requirements.
I would focus on the possible errors with the travel agency. Please DM me at any time if you would like to be connected with reputable counsel in Tokyo with deep experience representing non-Japanese in Japan civil matters. |
Originally Posted by donjo
(Post 34670991)
Arrived at Haneda two days ago and was told the visa was not done correctly. We were immediately escorted back to a United departure gate for deportation.
With the rules constantly changing and documentation online sometimes unclear, it's understandable that mistakes could be made. As some others have suggested, the most likely cause was that your travel agent did not fully understand the visa procedures. Travel agents have been instructed to issue a PDF document to their clients called the "Certificate for Completion of Registration issued by the ERFS" (ERFS). Here in the UK, we'd then take the ERFS to the Embassy of Japan along with the tourist visa application form and have a physical visa issued in the passport. However, in the US, Japanese missions are trialling an eVisa system. Although it's possible for your travel agent to apply for this on your behalf, the website suggests this is only allowed if you lack the capacity to do so yourself. If you have no memory of visiting https://www.evisa.mofa.go.jp/ and completing an application yourself, it is most likely that you didn't have a visa at all. Even though the visa waiver programme is now back in effect, it'd be worth hearing from you if you ever determine what happened. People who are applying for work/study visas through the eVisa system could still get caught out |
delete accidental double post
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So, there was not a visa issued at all, and the preparer and/or client were not even aware of that...It looks like misunderstanding and/or miscommunication...
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Originally Posted by nk15
(Post 34672888)
So, there was not a visa issued at all, and the preparer and/or client were not even aware of that...It looks like misunderstanding and/or miscommunication...
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Originally Posted by wrp96
(Post 34672898)
But then the question becomes how did UA not catch that he didn't have a visa at all?
That pdf should have clearly displayed though either "VISA" or "This is not a VISA", IMO. |
Originally Posted by wrp96
(Post 34672898)
But then the question becomes how did UA not catch that he didn't have a visa at all?
You'll find that there is a significant difference between the visa checks done by Japanese airline staff and European or US airline staff. For Japanese airline staff, checking Japanese visas + MySOS is their bread and butter. They follow internal guidance rather than generic IATA info. |
Originally Posted by wrp96
(Post 34672898)
But then the question becomes how did UA not catch that he didn't have a visa at all?
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Originally Posted by JL41
(Post 34672935)
The check-in agent would probably have used an IATA database provided to the airlines where you plug in the nationality of the traveller and the destination. This system will provide a text overview of the requirements when they were last updated, but it's hardly detailed enough to make an accurate judgement. These agents are being asked to be immigration agents for a hundred different countries with virtually no training. Especially when you consider this agent can be at an outstation that has no flights to Japan.
You'll find that there is a significant difference between the visa checks done by Japanese airline staff and European or US airline staff. For Japanese airline staff, checking Japanese visas + MySOS is their bread and butter. They follow internal guidance rather than generic IATA info. |
Originally Posted by MattEvan
(Post 34672945)
This is not a UA issue at all! If anything, UA stepped up heroically by opping-up OP to J class.
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Originally Posted by Ghoulish
(Post 34672950)
More likely "we can just use her return ticket" vs the usual "we need to eat the return fare like we do 99% of the time with immigration refusal".
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Originally Posted by JL41
(Post 34672935)
The check-in agent would probably have used an IATA database provided to the airlines where you plug in the nationality of the traveller and the destination. This system will provide a text overview of the requirements when they were last updated, but it's hardly detailed enough to make an accurate judgement. These agents are being asked to be immigration agents for a hundred different countries with virtually no training. Especially when you consider this agent can be at an outstation that has no flights to Japan.
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Originally Posted by MattEvan
(Post 34672951)
That can be sorted out on the back end with some force of will and elbow grease. The 12 hours in US-legacy carrier basic economy can not!
I'll bet J travelers on a week long ticket are almost never seen in this position. |
Originally Posted by findark
(Post 34672961)
Right - TIMATIC would pop up and say "visa is required", and OP would wave an official-looking document issued by Japan and say it's a visa. Not at all hard for a counter agent to make a mistake like that.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...dd0a681a7.jpeg |
OP, this is just an incredible story and a very sad one. So sorry to hear about the trouble here. I have no advice to offer that's any better than the other commenters. I only hope that your case was truly an anomaly.
However, I've noted a lot of the responses in this thread discuss Japanese xenophobia and the immigration officer's unwillingness to be helpful for something that was about to change in just a matter of days. Not to say that this isn't the case, but I'm old enough to remember when Northwest Airlines started flights from Tokyo to Portland, OR in 2000 and quickly became known in Japanese circles as "Deportland" as they regularly would deny entry to Asian travelers at dramatically high rates compared to other ports of entry. There was even an incident of strip-searching a businesswoman with what seems like little to no cause. At the time I was living in Tokyo, and my Japanese colleagues basically refused to take that flight (Northwest was our corporate airline at the time), and they would take other connections, even longer ones, to avoid it. I, myself, was looking forward to a trip to Japan next summer. I'm hoping that I don't have to rethink that - especially when traveling with my family. Seattle Times article: https://archive.seattletimes.com/arc...1&slug=4041807 NY Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/31/u...h-the-ins.html |
Originally Posted by invalyd
(Post 34672812)
I think this has already been mentioned but the tour agency could not have applied for the visa on OPs behalf. They would have had to either go to the consulate, or apply for an eVisa themselves. Since that did not happen, my bet is the tour guide sent the ERFS but no actual visa was issued as I am not sure what other PDF the tour agency could have even sent to remotely be confused for a visa.
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The most important question regarding this situation is, were you able to use the lounge before your forced departure?
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I'll just third the suggestion that OP actually had a "Certificate for Completion of Registration to the ERFS System" and not an actual visa. If it was an e-visa, the PDF would say "Visa Issuance Notice" and have a visa number written on it. The travel agent should have explained how to apply for the visa, and if not, this entire situation is their fault.
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