Narita Past and Present
Jan 28, 2022, 1:13 pm
#76
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Jan 28, 2022, 4:04 pm
#77
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Thanks for the Memories !!!
Posts: 10,656
Interesting on the 1979 JAL route map, Frankfurt is only served via Hamburg and Copenhagen seemingly not direct.
If I remember correctly, Air Nippon (ANA subsidiary lstarted its life the same way as Japan Asia Airways, for the purpose of flying to Taiwan. Once I took a taxi to Taoyuan airport the signs at the drop of point said Air Nippon, not All Nippon Airways. I never noticed what the signs said in Songshan, but as the Haneda Songshan flights were only added way after it was an issue. I guess just ANA.
If I remember correctly, Air Nippon (ANA subsidiary lstarted its life the same way as Japan Asia Airways, for the purpose of flying to Taiwan. Once I took a taxi to Taoyuan airport the signs at the drop of point said Air Nippon, not All Nippon Airways. I never noticed what the signs said in Songshan, but as the Haneda Songshan flights were only added way after it was an issue. I guess just ANA.
Jan 28, 2022, 7:48 pm
#79
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,099
Yeah, the Taiwan flights came much later than that. But it was an issue for a quite that airlines could not do both China and Taiwan. There are still some absurdities in place regarding the use of both Chinese and Taiwanese airspace on the same flight. I was speaking to an Air Nippon pilot a few years ago, it is not all the international standard...
Jan 28, 2022, 9:00 pm
#80
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (2 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 3,435
Interesting on the 1979 JAL route map, Frankfurt is only served via Hamburg and Copenhagen seemingly not direct.
If I remember correctly, Air Nippon (ANA subsidiary lstarted its life the same way as Japan Asia Airways, for the purpose of flying to Taiwan. Once I took a taxi to Taoyuan airport the signs at the drop of point said Air Nippon, not All Nippon Airways. I never noticed what the signs said in Songshan, but as the Haneda Songshan flights were only added way after it was an issue. I guess just ANA.
If I remember correctly, Air Nippon (ANA subsidiary lstarted its life the same way as Japan Asia Airways, for the purpose of flying to Taiwan. Once I took a taxi to Taoyuan airport the signs at the drop of point said Air Nippon, not All Nippon Airways. I never noticed what the signs said in Songshan, but as the Haneda Songshan flights were only added way after it was an issue. I guess just ANA.
1979 JAL served Frankfurt x4 weekly.
JL 431 / 432 (twice week, 747): ITM-NRT-ANC-CPH-FRA
JL 433 / 434 (once week, 747): ITM-NRT-ANC-HAM-FRA
JL 446 / 447 (once week, DC-8): NRT-MOW-FRA
I looked through the storage and guess what I found? I found 1981 timetable of Lufthansa! Let's look NRT flight on LH.
LH flew daily on FRA-NRT in November 1981. Routing of those flights were:
LH 640 / 641 (twice week, DC-10): FRA-ATH-KHI-BKK-HKG- NRT
LH 650 / 651 (four per week, 747): FRA-HAM-ANC-NRT-ITM
LH 658 / 659 (once week, 707): FRA-MOW-NRT
Even LH made a stop at Hamburg. Wonder why? I understand that it was around 1980 and situations were different than today. But why FRA-ANC-NRT flights had to make a stop at Hamburg? It almost looks like there was some kind of a rule that NRT-ANC-FRA flights had to make another stop in Europe and could not fly to FRA direct. Wonder why this was?
Jan 28, 2022, 9:23 pm
#81
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Programs: ʙᴏɴᴠo̱ʏ Au, IHG Au, HH Dia, Nexus, Pilot FlyingJ Preferred
Posts: 5,336
Even LH made a stop at Hamburg. Wonder why? I understand that it was around 1980 and situations were different than today. But why FRA-ANC-NRT flights had to make a stop at Hamburg? It almost looks like there was some kind of a rule that NRT-ANC-FRA flights had to make another stop in Europe and could not fly to FRA direct. Wonder why this was?
Jan 28, 2022, 9:24 pm
#82
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (2 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 3,435
Japan Air System... Can't believe you have a picture like this. Amazing! Used to be Toa Airways.
I vaguely remember feeling disappointed to hear that Toa Airlines was changing its name to Japan Air System. I had to have been really small like probably not even 10, but I remember wondering why every single airline in Jpn had to all have such vanilla names, either Jpn something (Japan Airlines, Japan Asia Airways, Japan Air System) or Nippon something (All Nippon Airways, Nippon Cargo). At least with Toa, you had something different. Of course, a couple decades later we're seeing too many crazy names like Skymark, Vanilla, Peach and Solaseed.
I don't know if I've ever seen a DC-8, let alone fly in one. I'm just reading about it right now on wikipedia. It entered service in 1950's and is apparently still in use as freighter!
I vaguely remember feeling disappointed to hear that Toa Airlines was changing its name to Japan Air System. I had to have been really small like probably not even 10, but I remember wondering why every single airline in Jpn had to all have such vanilla names, either Jpn something (Japan Airlines, Japan Asia Airways, Japan Air System) or Nippon something (All Nippon Airways, Nippon Cargo). At least with Toa, you had something different. Of course, a couple decades later we're seeing too many crazy names like Skymark, Vanilla, Peach and Solaseed.
I don't know if I've ever seen a DC-8, let alone fly in one. I'm just reading about it right now on wikipedia. It entered service in 1950's and is apparently still in use as freighter!
I found Toa Domestic Airline Sept. 1976 timetable.
1976 TDA flew DC-9-41 and YS-11. TDA flew regional routes (ANA flew domestic drunk and domestic regional, and JAL flew international and trunk domestic routes). Way back when I flew TDA when I visited Oki Islands, off the coast Shimane. The route was: OKI-(TDA, YS-11)-YGJ-(TDA, YS-11)-ITM-(JAL, DC-8)-HND. My memory of TDA.
Jan 28, 2022, 9:29 pm
#83
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: WAS/TYO
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP (3MM), DL PM, BONVOY TITANIUM, HYATT GLOBALIST, HILTON DIAMOND, IHG DIAMOND AMB, et al
Posts: 5,912
Jan 28, 2022, 9:39 pm
#84
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (2 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 3,435
ANA to Launch "BusinessJet" service
Yes, because it is "BusinessJet" ANA called CLUB ANA BJ and Economy BJ....
Jan 28, 2022, 9:41 pm
#85
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: BOS/SIN
Programs: DL PM, OZ Diamond Plus, BA Silver
Posts: 1,799
Love the old photos and route maps. Used to collect a bunch of them on trips long before the days of the internets.
I have some vague recollection the first time flew to NRT in 1990 was from SEA on Thai. I can not seem to find reference to this fifth freedom route, however.
I have some vague recollection the first time flew to NRT in 1990 was from SEA on Thai. I can not seem to find reference to this fifth freedom route, however.
I have no idea why TG would fly to DFW of all places though...
Jan 28, 2022, 9:58 pm
#86
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,099
Back in the days of regulations, lots of airline operated routes that would seem odd now, but route allocations were somewhat odd back in the day. Probably it was deemed some capacity was needed from the middle of the US to south east Asia and the traffic rights were assigned to Thai.
Jan 28, 2022, 10:00 pm
#87
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (2 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 3,435
The thing about Japan-Brazil is that it can be served efficiently in any direction -- through the US, Europe, or the Middle East -- so travelers have their choice of a dozen different global airlines. Nobody in their right mind would choose to fly through the US, even on a Japanese carrier, if only because it requires you to go through US immigration. EK and QR seem to be the preferred choice of my friends in Japan who fly to Brazil regularly, as they are so competitive on both service and price. I also remember flying ANA out of CDG several years back and seeing their plane parked right next to TAM's with a bunch of Brazilian passengers transferring right over.
US used to have sterile Int-Int connection where connection passengers did not have to go through immigration/passport control. AF Tahiti flight, CDG-LAX-PPT passengers transited at LAX at a transit lounge at TBIT of LAX and did not have to go through the U.S. immigration/passport control. 9/11 ended that practice. AA took part in designing and invested in DFW Terminal D (International terminal) where Terminal D had a large international transit lounge and AA was planning to make good use out of it. But sterile Int-Int transit was discontinued after 9/11 and when DFW Terminal D opened in 2005 this large fancy international lounge remained unused empty. AA was not happy at all. I know U.S. airlines is constantly bugging the U.S. government regarding bringing back sterile Int-Int transit at the U.S. airports.
Jan 28, 2022, 10:05 pm
#88
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Programs: ʙᴏɴᴠo̱ʏ Au, IHG Au, HH Dia, Nexus, Pilot FlyingJ Preferred
Posts: 5,336
https://www.weninchina.com/transpac-pioneers/thai-1983
it was DFW's only transpacific service at the time with convenient timing for US side connections, so perhaps less competition than the original LAX terminus. Amazing how much the air service landscape has changed in such a short amount of time.
Nice catch of the flight in that earlier photo!
Jan 28, 2022, 10:09 pm
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,099
Many said PanAm did not adjust with change of industry, PanAm thought they were mighty PanAm and PanAm thought they define the norm in the industry. People said same about JAL as the reason JAL had to file for a reorganization plan in a bankruptcy court. Nobody thought back in 1980 Middle East airlines will become giant like today.
US used to have sterile Int-Int connection where connection passengers did not have to go through immigration/passport control. AF Tahiti flight, CDG-LAX-PPT passengers transited at LAX at a transit lounge at TBIT of LAX and did not have to go through the U.S. immigration/passport control. 9/11 ended that practice. AA took part in designing and invested in DFW Terminal D (International terminal) where Terminal D had a large international transit lounge and AA was planning to make good use out of it. But sterile Int-Int transit was discontinued after 9/11 and when DFW Terminal D opened in 2005 this large fancy international lounge remained unused empty. AA was not happy at all. I know U.S. airlines is constantly bugging the U.S. government regarding bringing back sterile Int-Int transit at the U.S. airports.
US used to have sterile Int-Int connection where connection passengers did not have to go through immigration/passport control. AF Tahiti flight, CDG-LAX-PPT passengers transited at LAX at a transit lounge at TBIT of LAX and did not have to go through the U.S. immigration/passport control. 9/11 ended that practice. AA took part in designing and invested in DFW Terminal D (International terminal) where Terminal D had a large international transit lounge and AA was planning to make good use out of it. But sterile Int-Int transit was discontinued after 9/11 and when DFW Terminal D opened in 2005 this large fancy international lounge remained unused empty. AA was not happy at all. I know U.S. airlines is constantly bugging the U.S. government regarding bringing back sterile Int-Int transit at the U.S. airports.
Jan 28, 2022, 10:34 pm
#90
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (2 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 3,435
Love the old photos and route maps. Used to collect a bunch of them on trips long before the days of the internets.
I have some vague recollection the first time flew to NRT in 1990 was from SEA on Thai. I can not seem to find reference to this fifth freedom route, however.
I have some vague recollection the first time flew to NRT in 1990 was from SEA on Thai. I can not seem to find reference to this fifth freedom route, however.
I remember that I was impressed with the service in economy. Even in economy all passengers received orchid (real flower, not plastic fake one). Meal service on the tray small but real wine glass, not plastic cup.Yes, I also wondered why TG chose DFW as the U.S destination.
At SEA.
