Affordable (Michelin-starred and otherwise) restaurants in Tokyo, Kyoto and Osaka?
#46
Join Date: Sep 2009
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It’s not the questions (because they aren’t questions, not really), it’s that you are starting up far too many threads on topics that you would be better served at a dedicated food site like chowhound.
Over the years it has been my privilege to come to know many of the regular contributors to this forum whose opinions you are trying to ransack like a casual commodity. They come for all kinds of reasons and (most) earn respect here - certainly mine. What they are not; “tick off the boxes” people looking to acquire some kind of kudos or bragging rights for eating at places just because they are aspirational and fashionable. Some will dip their toes into that kind of territory, sure, but the common denominator is that they give a poo about what they eat, even if it is a guilty pleasure, and they have an interest in the cuisine.
Whatever it is you are doing, I am not seeing any real interest beyond what is occasionally referred to here as “star fecking”, and doing it as economically as possible.
Open up, ask something real, don’t tell yourself it’s not about you. I’m certain you’ll get a much better response.
Over the years it has been my privilege to come to know many of the regular contributors to this forum whose opinions you are trying to ransack like a casual commodity. They come for all kinds of reasons and (most) earn respect here - certainly mine. What they are not; “tick off the boxes” people looking to acquire some kind of kudos or bragging rights for eating at places just because they are aspirational and fashionable. Some will dip their toes into that kind of territory, sure, but the common denominator is that they give a poo about what they eat, even if it is a guilty pleasure, and they have an interest in the cuisine.
Whatever it is you are doing, I am not seeing any real interest beyond what is occasionally referred to here as “star fecking”, and doing it as economically as possible.
Open up, ask something real, don’t tell yourself it’s not about you. I’m certain you’ll get a much better response.
#47
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota,USA
Programs: UA, NW
Posts: 3,752
Some of the best meals I've had in Japan have been at obscure little holes-in-the-wall on side streets. Just two examples from my last trip, both in Ikebukuro:
1) An Indian restaurant with five counter seats, four of which were taken up by South Asians.
2) A Chinese restaurant run by Chinese people, who served up delicious real Chinese (not Chinese adapted to Japanese tastes) food
OK, these were not Japanese restaurants. I didn't encounter any outstanding Japanese food on my last trip, although I have on other trips, such as a reasonably priced and delicious kaiseki bento lunch at a place in the basement of Kyoto station, superb crab kamameshi off a side street in Asakusa, you get the picture.
I've had clients take me to expensive places, and while the food is lovely to look at, it is not always particularly tasty.
On my own, it's the holes-in-the-wall or the department store eateries all the way.
1) An Indian restaurant with five counter seats, four of which were taken up by South Asians.
2) A Chinese restaurant run by Chinese people, who served up delicious real Chinese (not Chinese adapted to Japanese tastes) food
OK, these were not Japanese restaurants. I didn't encounter any outstanding Japanese food on my last trip, although I have on other trips, such as a reasonably priced and delicious kaiseki bento lunch at a place in the basement of Kyoto station, superb crab kamameshi off a side street in Asakusa, you get the picture.
I've had clients take me to expensive places, and while the food is lovely to look at, it is not always particularly tasty.
On my own, it's the holes-in-the-wall or the department store eateries all the way.
#48
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Central California
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I am a back street roamer too. The best meals I have ever had in Japan were in little places I stumbled across while following locals into the alleys at lunchtime. Most are family-owned and they take pride in what they serve. I didn't even know you could get a great seafood curry until I found it on the specials board in a back-alley place in Okayama. Admittedly, a little Japanese language ability can help but the owners will usually go to great lengths to accommodate those without.
None of the places I have enjoyed ever had any kind of star rating. I guess that is important to some folks. I just want a good meal and maybe a laugh or two with some local folks.
None of the places I have enjoyed ever had any kind of star rating. I guess that is important to some folks. I just want a good meal and maybe a laugh or two with some local folks.
#49
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
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I like to take in as wide a range of experiences as possible. And I’m grateful that Tokyo allows me to cover a wider spectrum than my budget allows me to in London (there’s also a far smaller chance of coming away disappointed, although it does happen).
“Gourmet” restaurants offer me meals I will never cook at home. But they can also offer interesting insights into certain ingredients that I may be unfamiliar with or previously uninspired by.
Hole in the wall restaurants may also offer meals I would never cook myself (ramen is an apt example) or a revelatory new way to think about and improve food I already cook and am familiar with.
There are also small restaurants that specialise in cooking with a local ingredient that can transform my appreciation of it. What’s wonderful about these is that it is highly unlikely that a Michelin starred restaurant elsewhere in the world will ever match their preparation of this small establishment’s speciality. Fukagawa Juku is a small restaurant that elevated my enjoyment of clams as well as making me feel a connection to Tokyo’s past. My love of soba was made permanent at Shinano, many years ago. https://tabelog.com/en/tokyo/A1309/A130905/13010567/
I suppose that when a place has a Michelin star it gives a diner a sort of “psychic shield”. Perhaps it’s a feeling that their own tastes could be ridiculed if they are open about them and they will be revealed as some kind of oik. I’m fine with that. I like peasant food. I am not interested in only eating like an aristocrat. Which is just as well, as I couldn’t afford to anyway.
Turns out I’m going to Shiogama (near Sendai) on this next trip. I can afford to eat sushi there. Tuna is excellent in Shiogama, but so are the sardines. Both are so wonderful I couldn’t tell you which I prefer. The exquisitely sliced sardine sushi in Shiogama is an example of a specific local, low status, ingredient that can be taken to unexpected heights.
“Gourmet” restaurants offer me meals I will never cook at home. But they can also offer interesting insights into certain ingredients that I may be unfamiliar with or previously uninspired by.
Hole in the wall restaurants may also offer meals I would never cook myself (ramen is an apt example) or a revelatory new way to think about and improve food I already cook and am familiar with.
There are also small restaurants that specialise in cooking with a local ingredient that can transform my appreciation of it. What’s wonderful about these is that it is highly unlikely that a Michelin starred restaurant elsewhere in the world will ever match their preparation of this small establishment’s speciality. Fukagawa Juku is a small restaurant that elevated my enjoyment of clams as well as making me feel a connection to Tokyo’s past. My love of soba was made permanent at Shinano, many years ago. https://tabelog.com/en/tokyo/A1309/A130905/13010567/
I suppose that when a place has a Michelin star it gives a diner a sort of “psychic shield”. Perhaps it’s a feeling that their own tastes could be ridiculed if they are open about them and they will be revealed as some kind of oik. I’m fine with that. I like peasant food. I am not interested in only eating like an aristocrat. Which is just as well, as I couldn’t afford to anyway.
Turns out I’m going to Shiogama (near Sendai) on this next trip. I can afford to eat sushi there. Tuna is excellent in Shiogama, but so are the sardines. Both are so wonderful I couldn’t tell you which I prefer. The exquisitely sliced sardine sushi in Shiogama is an example of a specific local, low status, ingredient that can be taken to unexpected heights.
#50
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 187
They're not mutually exclusive. Most of the Michelin starred restaurants in Tokyo are fantastic and a few are overrated. And obviously there are hundreds of amazing restaurants in Tokyo that do not have, and will never have a Michelin star.
Last edited by od_sf; Mar 16, 2019 at 3:10 pm
#51
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 187
Example: if you ask the hardcore local Tokyo sushi enthusiasts (who couldn't care less about Michelin) what the best sushiya in Tokyo is at the moment, many will say it is Amamoto. Amamoto happens to have two Michelin stars. Feel free to discount it outright because it is in the Michelin guide. Me, I'll definitely eat there if I get the chance.
Just because one enjoys Michelin-starred restaurants doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot also appreciate back alley mom-and-pop shops as well.
Last edited by od_sf; Mar 16, 2019 at 3:08 pm
#52
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Example: if you ask the hardcore local Tokyo sushi enthusiasts (who couldn't care less about Michelin) what the best sushiya in Tokyo is at the moment, many will say it is Amamoto. Amamoto happens to have two Michelin stars. Feel free to discount it outright because it is in the Michelin guide. Me, I'll definitely eat there if I get the chance.
#53
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: MEL
Posts: 2,441
We all have our preferences and to each their own. Personally, I have no interest in eating in Michelin-starred restaurants and would resent the cost of doing so, which would be wasted on us. Obviously, for other people, YMMV.
#54
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota,USA
Programs: UA, NW
Posts: 3,752
I never had another reason to go to Nihonbashi, but I've had a lot of similar experiences over the years.
#55
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Posts: 9,341
This is a really close-minded outlook to have, it is just as close-minded as only wanting to visit Michelin starred restaurants.
Example: if you ask the hardcore local Tokyo sushi enthusiasts (who couldn't care less about Michelin) what the best sushiya in Tokyo is at the moment, many will say it is Amamoto. Amamoto happens to have two Michelin stars. Feel free to discount it outright because it is in the Michelin guide. Me, I'll definitely eat there if I get the chance.
Just because one enjoys Michelin-starred restaurants doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot also appreciate back alley mom-and-pop shops as well.
Example: if you ask the hardcore local Tokyo sushi enthusiasts (who couldn't care less about Michelin) what the best sushiya in Tokyo is at the moment, many will say it is Amamoto. Amamoto happens to have two Michelin stars. Feel free to discount it outright because it is in the Michelin guide. Me, I'll definitely eat there if I get the chance.
Just because one enjoys Michelin-starred restaurants doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot also appreciate back alley mom-and-pop shops as well.
#57
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Hilton, Hyatt House, Del Taco
Posts: 5,371
As a Japanese person, and I think a lot of Japanese are like me, I couldn't care less about going to Michelin places in Tokyo but am a sucker for it when visiting a major foreign city (eg, HKG). I suspect OP might be similar in that regard. I've tried to go to Michelin places in HKG but, at the end of the day, the whole Michelin thing is a bunch of bs. Peninsula's Spring Moon hasn't changed in quality since 5-10 yrs ago. So why is it Michelin-starred now but not back then? Tim Ho Wan deserves a star? 3 stars for Bo Innovation?
Anyways, I agree with someone above who said to follow the Tabelog rating. I don't always agree with Tabelog rating scores either, but it's the best we've got. Otherwise stick to the brand/chain you know and trust, which is what I do most often in Jpn. If you just follow where the locals are going, you might just follow them into Saizeriya. Hole-in-the-wall can be more often miss than hit, and chances are the ramen or sushi at such place will not be as good as Ichiran or Katsu Midori.
Anyways, I agree with someone above who said to follow the Tabelog rating. I don't always agree with Tabelog rating scores either, but it's the best we've got. Otherwise stick to the brand/chain you know and trust, which is what I do most often in Jpn. If you just follow where the locals are going, you might just follow them into Saizeriya. Hole-in-the-wall can be more often miss than hit, and chances are the ramen or sushi at such place will not be as good as Ichiran or Katsu Midori.
#58
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Thank you all!
#59
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+1. Completely understand that these are conflicting requirements. The trick in Japan is finding those places that for some reason are just as good as the ones giving fainting spells to the star feckers but remain ignored in the circuit. And then when going there, do your best to make sure the places remain on the ignore list of most of these clowns.
#60
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This is funny because it's true. Japanese aren't immune to the "value-for-money" fallacy either. Sometimes you'll see a long line at some eatery, line up to see what the fuss is all about and be intensely disappointed afterwards. The common denominator of all of these places? They're incredibly cheap and the portions are big.