kaka

joejones

UA has applied to serve HND from EWR, IAD, ORD, IAH, LAX and GUM, and says it intends to end NRT service from ORD, IAD and IAH if it gets HND rights.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unit...hnd-slots.html

AlwaysAisle

DL said something similar, didn't they? In case of DL said something like if they cannot get slots at HND, then move operation to ICN where Sky Team partner KE is located, didn't they?

joejones

AA is asking for 2x DFW-HND, 1x LAX-HND and 1x LAS-HND (!), per TPG.
Details here. LAX will be a red-eye, yay!

joejones

Delta is requesting 2x HNL and 1x ATL, DTW, PDX and SEA. Unclear whether it would then terminate the routes from NRT.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...haneda-456005/

evergrn

jamar

I'm happy to see more red-eyes, since daytime flights won't connect to HND-SHA. Personal preference that might not be shared by many, but I'd rather spend time connecting in HND (even overnight- I'll just spend the night at the First Cabin at HND T1) than flying nonstop into PVG. It's so much less crowded and transport is easier.

kaka

moondog

My thoughts
1. NRT does not have a bright future
-it's not especially close to Tokyo
-it is no longer a good connection option
2. HND will excel as an O/D airport, but ICN is much better for connections to other cities in Asia
3. The six slots on offer will be split between the US3
-EWR-HND
-ORD-HND
-DFW-HND (only one)
-LAX-HND
-SEA-HND
-IAD-HND

mnbp

There are actually 12 new slot pairs (each slot pair supports a landing and a takeoff) that are being assigned by US DOT, and 12 new slot pairs being assigned by Japanese authorities.

evergrn

One would think NRT is theoretically not positioned well to have a bright future.
But it will always have a future, because Chiba prefecture (and consequently the Jpn government) will see to it that it does.

You're probably right that HND will excel more as an O-D airport than an international hub, because of capacity issues and also the issue of its international growth being hindered by the need to pander to NRT. But I'm certain TYO still aspires to stay in competition for having an international hub airport. Yet things aren't headed in the right direction because, while the increased international flights at HND have made it a more functional transit airport, DL and UA have really scaled back at NRT over the past 5-6 years. And unless we have a more crisp definition of NRT and HND's respective roles, TYO will always have a wonky situation where it's posing its own barriers to developing a true efficient hub and thus continues to lose Japanese pax to ICN and/or require those dreaded inter-airport transfers.

I think the most logical scenarios might be:
1). HND becomes hubs for JL and NH (hence, airport for OW and Star), while NRT becomes the airport for Skyteam and all other airlines, LCC, freight and limited JL and NH operations for strictly O-D international travel.
2). HND maintains status as mostly domestic airport with limited & capped international traffic for primarily O-D purpose (as now), while NRT is allowed to continue to grow as the unquestioned hub.

(1) seems impossible politically, as Chiba, Keisei and DL/Sky will not let this happen.
(2) seems to me the more realistic scenario, but one might argue this is merely continuing the status-quo and why not develop the more geographically convenient airport. My response to that is that it wouldn't exactly be status-quo because I'm proposing that we take NRT to new heights by adding more infrastructure (another runway, do something to shave 10min off current NEx travel time to Tokkyo) and increasing the # of domestic flights.

Option (2) would be sort of like Dulles and National, only with National having some international flights. But Dulles works because it has plenty of real estate, capacity and all the domestic flights to feed all its international flights.

jib71

I guess the word "bright" is crucial here.
The Japanese government may determine that there will always be a corner of Chiba that is NRT. They've demonstrated a stubborn determination about this for a long time. But with international competition in the equation (e.g. ICN), the brightness of NRT's future is not entirely in the hands of the Japanese government and Chiba prefecture.

evergrn

Yes, well they really need to decide first on the big picture and get things right. If they favor NRT, fine. For me I'm okay with NRT as Tokyo's primary international gateway and certainly nothing wrong with it becoming a hub airport. After all, it is still very well-connected to the city center in comparison to many other major airports around the world, its 60km distance away from Tokyo notwithstanding. There is considerably more real estate at NRT than HND and, now that the anti-airport faction has mostly quieted down, I suspect it is easier to expand NRT than HND. If Jpn wants to build an international research/medical hub like ICN's to go along with airport hub, then NRT is also probably more suited for that than HND. If Jpn wants to sort of ditch NRT and put all the spotlight on HND, fine too. I just think the current wishy-washy juxtaposition of NRT/HND without a clear vision is not doing anyone any favors.

I blame Jpn government's years of ineptitude in handling NRT situation for NRT's longstanding limitations and subsequently what has led to this current NRT/HND dilemma. Had they been more aggressive in dealing with those last-remaining stubborn farmers (I'm talking 1990's, not 60's~70's when things were untenable), NRT would've had 3 runways 20 years ago. That probably would've helped NRT a lot to hold down its position as Asian's leading gateway, perhaps even allowed JAL & ANA to operate more domestic connecting flights, and we wouldn't even be talking about HND.

joejones

evergrn

I'm aware of the above news, but what I'm saying is this should've happened 20-25 years ago. This long delay has put TYO behind the 8 ball and opened up Pandora's box that is HND's international operations (which is not all bad, of course). NRT was supposed to have 3 runways, but the government dragged their feet on this when they should've pursued this more aggressively around late 80's~early 90's. Better late than never, but nonetheless very late. That's Jpn government for you.