invisible

I've been in Japan more than dozen times. Except one - 1.5 day mileage/status run trip - all others were work related. And I have not been anywhere else except Tokyo/Kamakura .

Yet, even after dozen visits, I am (and my wife as well) still in the phase of being fascinated by all this things which is called 'Japan'. From (hilarious) signs in English (better to say - Engrish) at NRT/Yodabashi Camera (and all other places) to everything else - food; daily commute on metro; dress of salarymen; toilets warming your rear end (!); the slurping noise at high-end restaurants; Shibuya with 109 and Hachiko crossing; Harajuku, Yoyogi and Akihabara, little parks popping up suddenly when you stroll on streets; rice crackers; display of plastic food, etc, etc, etc - you know what I am talking about. Needless to say that we watched all episodes of Begin Japanology.

My question to those who frequently go to Japan and those expats who have been living there for years, especially if you speak Japanese fluently - if you had this kind of fascination at the beginning, does it ever get old? These things which can happen 'only in Japan' - are they still happening to you (or you are observing them) after living/visiting Japan number of years/times?

My story of 'only in Japan' - on my return leg from NRT I had NIVEA hand cream small blue container which went loose and got dropped inside of the carry on. The security guy takes small ziploc bag, puts plastic gloves on, puts the hand cream jar inside the ziploc bag, carefully folds the bag around it and with bow gives me back...

LapLap

Personally, I'm rather pleased that I'm kinda, sorta over the "this kind of fascination" that you describe.
What I mean by that is that the way I perceive and think about Japan (and the things I see, or that happen to me there) has changed. And I'm glad about that. The "exoticism" and "attraction of the other" works like a filter - it makes Japan into a caricature of itself.

Put it it another way; there's a reason many folks prefer dogs and cats to actual people. Not being able to hold a conversation with the animals gives you a cuddly blank page on which to project your desires and expectations.

For me, it's like I'm beginning discussions with Japan. My vocabulary and comprehension is still pitiful and the experience is frustrating (to put it mildly) but there's been progress, and that progress continues.

When it comes to my relationship with Japan, I now see myself as a toddler interacting with a varied range of grown ups.

But I get the attraction of feeling like an adult in a cat and dog petting parlour. However, I wouldn't go back to that, even if I could.

The other benefit of getting to better grips with Japan is a deeper understanding of my own (European) cultures. So yes, I'm still fascinated with Japan and I have a love/hate relationship with it, just like I do with the two countries I'm a citizen of.

invisible

Could you describe where this hate comes from?

I personally know what I can live in Japan, but not for extended period of of time because you always will be gaijin even if you know Japanese that well that you can teach it in local college.

However, this - not being able to assimilate - is not reserved for Japan, vast majority of countries on Earth are like that.

LapLap

LapLap

Should also add, that I recently made an enquiry with the Japan Embassy when I went to renew his passport asking how long he had been registered with them (essential now if he wants to get a JR PAss). They only had records that dated from the Birth of our child. Which suggests to me what a waste of time his registering/apology letter back in 2006 was.

invisible

LapLap, if bureaucracy and forms is your only complaint, honestly, Japan has looooong way to go to be in the list of worst offenders.

I personally completely understand why forms are required to be filled with the official, national language of the country.

I can tell, also, based on my personal experience, that filling forms once can't compare to the layers of bureaucratic hell one should go in some other, very well and not so developed countries. If you want, I have couple of examples:

- It took me 9 years to get my employment based green card in US and three years my papers were in FBI for background check. It got cleared only after I personally wrote to both President and the First Lady, heads of FBI, DHS and all senators and congressmen in Homeland Security committee.
- Russia requires their citizens to renew their internal passports in Russia, it can't be done while overseas. Without having internal passport you can't have external passport for international travel. So if you are Russian citizen permanently residing overseas and do not have citizenship of another country, you must go back to renew your internal passport to be able to renew external passport.
- Also, if you want to receive pension from Russia, you have to personally appear at Russian consulate and sign the form there which is called (I am not kidding) 'A proof to be among living'
- And when my wife applied and got citizenship of my country of birth (which is not Russia, btw), in her new passport her name was misspelled in English despite the fact that all documents were provided in English as well. And it happened twice. Should I say that it required visiting consulate three times by flying there across the country?

So... if filing one form is all you can be mad about Japanese bureaucracy, you are fine.

But we got off track of the thread here.

LapLap

Taiwaned

LapLap's feeling is probably very similar to my feelings.

There is a HUGE difference between LIVING and VISITING Japan.

As a second generation Japanese Canadian, I hate living here. I love my wife, have a sense of duty to assist elderly parents, doing my best to keep a good attitude towards living in Japan (because being down doesn't help anything) but I really want to leave. Japan is not easy for non Japanese to live.

Sure there are good things, still discovering new tasty food, appreciate the convenience of the transportation system but that is so superficial.

The thing I hate the most about Japan is "tateimae". This gets old real fast. You do not enjoy life being cynical of people. The longer you live in Japan, you need other people to REALLY connect with. You can't with this Japanese "cultural" deceitfulness.

evergrn

Interesting thread. Things mentioned in OP... those are aspects of Jpn that any visitor can appreciate every single time and should never get old.
But as others have said, there is no utopia and living in Jpn is surely different than visiting. I'm a Jpn native, love visiting there, get bummed out when I return from Jpn each time, and things that you mention are some of the reasons why I'd love to move back someday. I probably wouldn't move back just for those reasons (I have other reasons). I too have a love/hate relationship with Jpn.

From everything that I've heard and observed, the paperwork and bureaucracy are worse in Jpn than US for most things. Stagnant wages, inability to reform anything, and xenophobia are stifling the country and its future. Age discrimination and insular thinking (at least in my line of work) make it impossible to find any meaningful work there, even though I have many opportunities elsewhere in Asia. My parents who have spent years abroad find it stifling sometimes to live there with complicated neighborhood rules, etiquettes and relationships. You may not notice this as a foreign visitor, but some people are extremely quick to reprimand you there. I'm told that that kind of thing also extends into workplace and schools where there's apparently a lot of hierarchical abuses and pressure to conform, although workplace environment is certainly getting better in some industries.

Jpn's charming, amazing, unique, all of that. I'd love to try living there one day if I can make it work, although it'd be a leap of faith as I think chances are 60/40 that I'll be less happy there than US and moveover I haven't been able to find work there anyways.

evergrn

I always thought you were Taiwanese for some reason.

Taiwaned

I wonder why???? LOL

I love Taiwan. Found FlyerTalk while we were living in Taiwan. I felt I was "Taiwaned". Didn't want to leave. Of course, that was before living in China and now Japan. Would go back to Taiwan in a heartbeat if I could.

evergrn

I see. That's cool, thanks for sharing that.

So Taiwan's an easier place for you to live than Jpn? I've never been to Taiwan, but msot Taiwanese people I know seem to be pretty down to earth.

MikeFromTokyo

I think that fascination about any foreign land is something that people experience, and then after a few years of living somewhere one starts to see reality a bit more clearly.

A lot of people are very interested in Japan’s unique pop culture, and especially animation. I never fit in that category, but I did fall in love with Japan for other reasons. I love the food, not only Japanese cuisine, but also the many wonderful restaurants of all kinds that exist in Tokyo. I really have never encountered another place in the world that rivals Tokyo in terms of diversity and quality of the foods that are available there. Everything else about the city also suited me. I love how quiet and calm parts of Tokyo can be, while at the same time you can find virtually anything you are looking for in terms of cultural activities, shopping, entertainment, nightlife, etc...

There were aspects of living in Japan that I found irritating at times, but I am pleased to say that I have largely forgotten about minor annoyances and mostly remember the many positive experiences I had. And I look forward to many more, as being away from Japan has made it very important to me to periodically return. I am glad that it is only an effortless, direct flight away on TG.

5khours

I lived in Japan for a long time and still visit frequently. I think the answer depends in part on how old you are, your ethnicity/nationality, your financial situation, your work situation, etc. I agree with LapLap that's it love/hate thing. For me it was a love hate cycle. First I loved it, then I hated it, then I loved it. Over time the cycles got longer. Initially, it was week to week, then months, then years, and now decades.

CrazyInteg

So your opinion of an entire country is based off of one metropolitan area? You should travel around Japan and see if you're fascinated by the rest of it.