KFC - proof that not everything in Japan is kawaii
Sep 23, 2014, 8:44 pm
#16
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Sep 23, 2014, 10:56 pm
#17
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Sep 25, 2014, 9:51 am
#18
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I think Japanese strawberries are great. Especially ones from Kyushu. They have developed a range of remarkable cultivars.
There is nothing wrong with hydroponics. I doubt "gout de terroir" is particularly important for strawberries.
There is nothing wrong with hydroponics. I doubt "gout de terroir" is particularly important for strawberries.
Sep 25, 2014, 4:29 pm
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Sep 26, 2014, 2:22 am
#20
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This thread certainly runs the gamut !!! How did the conversation change from bizarre headgear to super high quality strawberries ?
A decade ago I gathered a few on here to partake in some serious strawberries and mikan oranges. Those were the days.....
A decade ago I gathered a few on here to partake in some serious strawberries and mikan oranges. Those were the days.....
Sep 26, 2014, 10:35 pm
#21
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I found that my local Hanamasa (yes, scoff all that you want) had extraordinary strawberries from Nagasaki at a decent price (for Japan). You find a lot from Tochigi, which are presumably hydroponic. I had Tochigi on my blacklist, but I suppose that fruit from a hydroponic greenhouse is pretty safe. Generally, they had them from Nagasaki, Fukuoka, Tochigi and I think also Shizuoka.
I prefer smaller strawberries with concentrated fruit. I noticed that in the department stores they sort them by size and you pay a lot more for the larger ones.
Turning to mikan, I prefer dekopon. Although, the mikan that I got down in Kyushu was really good. They have dekopon in the USA since 2012. They call it "sumo fruit" (sic).
I prefer smaller strawberries with concentrated fruit. I noticed that in the department stores they sort them by size and you pay a lot more for the larger ones.
Turning to mikan, I prefer dekopon. Although, the mikan that I got down in Kyushu was really good. They have dekopon in the USA since 2012. They call it "sumo fruit" (sic).
Sep 27, 2014, 2:15 am
#22
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Have no idea what to make of your comments about strawberries. The sole reason I brought them up was to comment about "the masses" (and I happily include myself in this) being given the opportunity to eat wildly extravagant foods at the very end of the year with the caveat of a significant compromise:
Crablike fish meat rather than crab legs
Strawberries, hydroponically grown in the winter
A KFC bucket rather than an oven cooked turkey or goose
I see that you are presenting a case for artificially nourished strawberries ripened in December being the equivalent of soil grown strawberries harvested in June/July.
Please note that I won't be subscribing.
---
Mikan - yes, they're in season in December. Have treasured memories of drinking tea and eating through a box of delicious mikan sent by friends from Kyushu with my grandmother-in-law at her kotatsu at Christmas time.
Crablike fish meat rather than crab legs
Strawberries, hydroponically grown in the winter
A KFC bucket rather than an oven cooked turkey or goose
I see that you are presenting a case for artificially nourished strawberries ripened in December being the equivalent of soil grown strawberries harvested in June/July.
Please note that I won't be subscribing.
---
Mikan - yes, they're in season in December. Have treasured memories of drinking tea and eating through a box of delicious mikan sent by friends from Kyushu with my grandmother-in-law at her kotatsu at Christmas time.
Sep 29, 2014, 10:27 am
#23
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Like I said before, it is the cultivar (type) of strawberry. The ones that taste good do not necessarily look good or travel well. You do not really get much benefit from the soil in a strawberry. The key is the sugar content. It's not like wine where you are looking for minerality.
I can tell you to that any strawberry purchased in Europe that comes from Holland or Belgium is hydroponic and I am sure that it is expanding in the UK. All tomatoes (and peppers, cucumbers, etc.) in northern Europe are hydroponic. The ones in Spain grow semi-hydroponically in "enarenado", which uses a 10 cm sand/gravel top layer.
I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of Japanese strawberries are hydroponic.
Conversely, in the US strawberries are soil grown, e.g., in California and the commercial ones are generally crap. The same is true of tomatoes. The low quality commercial tomatoes are grown in soil, for example, in Italy and Florida. The dramatic improvement in tomatoes in the US since the 1990s is due to hydroponic cultivation, largely from Canada and recently in Mexico.
The problem with commercial cultivation in soil is that the soil has to be fumigated and effectively sterilized with Methyl Bromide. Not sure how much gout de terroir you get from this type of soil! High-tech glasshouse hydroponic culitvation allows for pesticide free cultivation because it is a closed system.
I can tell you to that any strawberry purchased in Europe that comes from Holland or Belgium is hydroponic and I am sure that it is expanding in the UK. All tomatoes (and peppers, cucumbers, etc.) in northern Europe are hydroponic. The ones in Spain grow semi-hydroponically in "enarenado", which uses a 10 cm sand/gravel top layer.
I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of Japanese strawberries are hydroponic.
Conversely, in the US strawberries are soil grown, e.g., in California and the commercial ones are generally crap. The same is true of tomatoes. The low quality commercial tomatoes are grown in soil, for example, in Italy and Florida. The dramatic improvement in tomatoes in the US since the 1990s is due to hydroponic cultivation, largely from Canada and recently in Mexico.
The problem with commercial cultivation in soil is that the soil has to be fumigated and effectively sterilized with Methyl Bromide. Not sure how much gout de terroir you get from this type of soil! High-tech glasshouse hydroponic culitvation allows for pesticide free cultivation because it is a closed system.
Sep 29, 2014, 12:47 pm
#24
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I'm not sure you fully understand the implications of sand mulching.
Those of us who are over 40 remember a time in Spain where all the tomatoes were grown in soil and sold in season. Sand mulching was more or less introduced in the 60s and only started to become common in the 70s, alongside the growth of greenhouses/polytunnels/plastic canopy fields.
From then on the taste of tomatoes took a nose dive.
When one goes to someone's home or to a cafe or restaurant in Spain and the tomatoes are good enough to comment on, invariably one finds that they were grown in their own garden/finca/huerta, the age old way.
Amongst the mass produced tomatoes sold in the shops and markets there is a particularly famous and lauded kind called the RAF tomato (the name relates to its resistance to the fusarium fungi) - and it is grown under plastic on a sand mulch. However, suggesting that "enarenado" is semi hydroponic does not explain the fact that you cannot grow this type of tomato anywhere but a few places in Almeria (or harvest it far outside of its March/April season) without seriously compromising its taste and texture. If sand mulching meant growing semi-hydroponically the way you have said it does, RAF tomatoes grown in Murcia or Valencia should taste the same. I can assure you they do not.
Am still not subscribing.
Those of us who are over 40 remember a time in Spain where all the tomatoes were grown in soil and sold in season. Sand mulching was more or less introduced in the 60s and only started to become common in the 70s, alongside the growth of greenhouses/polytunnels/plastic canopy fields.
From then on the taste of tomatoes took a nose dive.
When one goes to someone's home or to a cafe or restaurant in Spain and the tomatoes are good enough to comment on, invariably one finds that they were grown in their own garden/finca/huerta, the age old way.
Amongst the mass produced tomatoes sold in the shops and markets there is a particularly famous and lauded kind called the RAF tomato (the name relates to its resistance to the fusarium fungi) - and it is grown under plastic on a sand mulch. However, suggesting that "enarenado" is semi hydroponic does not explain the fact that you cannot grow this type of tomato anywhere but a few places in Almeria (or harvest it far outside of its March/April season) without seriously compromising its taste and texture. If sand mulching meant growing semi-hydroponically the way you have said it does, RAF tomatoes grown in Murcia or Valencia should taste the same. I can assure you they do not.
Am still not subscribing.
Sep 29, 2014, 3:52 pm
#25
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I did a major global study of hydroponics in 2009. I looked at my report and forgot that according to my estimates Almeria was 25% hydroponic and growing. They use low cost perlite as the medium.
Almeria has bad soil and high salinity water. If you grow tomatoes in the natural soil of Almeria it's not going to be beneficial for the taste of the tomato. In Murcia where they have more corporate growers they use bagged sand and coco peat as the media.
In Israel they also use sand in the south and volcanic tuff in the north. Also, in Morocco they use sand and some coco peat.
The objective in commercial farming is to maximize yield, which is not necessarily compatible with good taste. But Florida tomatoes are produced with low yield and are the horrible "slicer" tomatoes that are used in the fast food industry and were the standard supermarket tomato until the 1990s/2000s in the US. These tomatoes are rock hard, picked when green (or white) and have zero vine ripening.
Incidentally, in the US there are only 3 large corporate growers that have survived but there are many micro-growers (half an acre hothouse or smaller) and they produce expensive, tasty tomatoes using hydroponic systems. Often sold at farmer's markets.
It's the cultivar but also the time on vine that is important for taste. It is here the small scale "boutique" growers have an advantage. The fact that the person growing tasty tomatoes in their backyard is due to the choice of cultivar and the time on vine. Not the soil.
Almeria has bad soil and high salinity water. If you grow tomatoes in the natural soil of Almeria it's not going to be beneficial for the taste of the tomato. In Murcia where they have more corporate growers they use bagged sand and coco peat as the media.
In Israel they also use sand in the south and volcanic tuff in the north. Also, in Morocco they use sand and some coco peat.
The objective in commercial farming is to maximize yield, which is not necessarily compatible with good taste. But Florida tomatoes are produced with low yield and are the horrible "slicer" tomatoes that are used in the fast food industry and were the standard supermarket tomato until the 1990s/2000s in the US. These tomatoes are rock hard, picked when green (or white) and have zero vine ripening.
Incidentally, in the US there are only 3 large corporate growers that have survived but there are many micro-growers (half an acre hothouse or smaller) and they produce expensive, tasty tomatoes using hydroponic systems. Often sold at farmer's markets.
It's the cultivar but also the time on vine that is important for taste. It is here the small scale "boutique" growers have an advantage. The fact that the person growing tasty tomatoes in their backyard is due to the choice of cultivar and the time on vine. Not the soil.
Sep 29, 2014, 6:49 pm
#26
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In Almeria, La Vega (specifically the fields of Níjar and Lower Andarax) has ALWAYS had excellent soil for tomatoes. The naturally drier plains of Cañada and Nijar required the new techniques introduced in the 60s both to make it possible to grow crops in their arid, high saline soils and to make it economically feasible to do so.
It so happens that the high salinity of the local soil suits the RAF tomato, a very odd breed with a low (about 6 trusses per plant) yield that is at its best when sown in the Autumn.
The whole arrangement is peculiar and a bit freaky and cannot be properly replicated anywhere else, which is why the prices are sky high for this particular tomato. It is about the only decent tasting tomato available in the early Spring and the Spaniards know it.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SOIL.
And despite the great flavour of a La Vega grown RAF tomato harvested in March, I'd rather have a summer picked tomato grown from the ground in one of my friends or family's Murcian or Alicantian huertos. Same with strawberries, even the best of the December crop don't compare to good soil grown strawberries in their season.
Am still not subscribing.
It so happens that the high salinity of the local soil suits the RAF tomato, a very odd breed with a low (about 6 trusses per plant) yield that is at its best when sown in the Autumn.
The whole arrangement is peculiar and a bit freaky and cannot be properly replicated anywhere else, which is why the prices are sky high for this particular tomato. It is about the only decent tasting tomato available in the early Spring and the Spaniards know it.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SOIL.
And despite the great flavour of a La Vega grown RAF tomato harvested in March, I'd rather have a summer picked tomato grown from the ground in one of my friends or family's Murcian or Alicantian huertos. Same with strawberries, even the best of the December crop don't compare to good soil grown strawberries in their season.
Am still not subscribing.
Sep 29, 2014, 7:38 pm
#27
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I did a major global study of hydroponics in 2009. I looked at my report and forgot that according to my estimates Almeria was 25% hydroponic and growing. They use low cost perlite as the medium.
Almeria has bad soil and high salinity water. If you grow tomatoes in the natural soil of Almeria it's not going to be beneficial for the taste of the tomato. In Murcia where they have more corporate growers they use bagged sand and coco peat as the media.
In Israel they also use sand in the south and volcanic tuff in the north. Also, in Morocco they use sand and some coco peat.
The objective in commercial farming is to maximize yield, which is not necessarily compatible with good taste. But Florida tomatoes are produced with low yield and are the horrible "slicer" tomatoes that are used in the fast food industry and were the standard supermarket tomato until the 1990s/2000s in the US. These tomatoes are rock hard, picked when green (or white) and have zero vine ripening.
Incidentally, in the US there are only 3 large corporate growers that have survived but there are many micro-growers (half an acre hothouse or smaller) and they produce expensive, tasty tomatoes using hydroponic systems. Often sold at farmer's markets.
It's the cultivar but also the time on vine that is important for taste. It is here the small scale "boutique" growers have an advantage. The fact that the person growing tasty tomatoes in their backyard is due to the choice of cultivar and the time on vine. Not the soil.
Almeria has bad soil and high salinity water. If you grow tomatoes in the natural soil of Almeria it's not going to be beneficial for the taste of the tomato. In Murcia where they have more corporate growers they use bagged sand and coco peat as the media.
In Israel they also use sand in the south and volcanic tuff in the north. Also, in Morocco they use sand and some coco peat.
The objective in commercial farming is to maximize yield, which is not necessarily compatible with good taste. But Florida tomatoes are produced with low yield and are the horrible "slicer" tomatoes that are used in the fast food industry and were the standard supermarket tomato until the 1990s/2000s in the US. These tomatoes are rock hard, picked when green (or white) and have zero vine ripening.
Incidentally, in the US there are only 3 large corporate growers that have survived but there are many micro-growers (half an acre hothouse or smaller) and they produce expensive, tasty tomatoes using hydroponic systems. Often sold at farmer's markets.
It's the cultivar but also the time on vine that is important for taste. It is here the small scale "boutique" growers have an advantage. The fact that the person growing tasty tomatoes in their backyard is due to the choice of cultivar and the time on vine. Not the soil.
This summer's very cool weather here in southwest Ohio reinforced an old observation: tomatoes really need hot temperatures to ripen properly. Living in tomato, sweet corn and asparagus country means I rarely eat those vegetables except at home -- it's too disappointing!
We do suffer from a tomato blight around here, something that infects the soil. The fix is to grow tomatoes in different places every few years.
Sep 30, 2014, 7:39 am
#28
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Very interesting, thanks.
This summer's very cool weather here in southwest Ohio reinforced an old observation: tomatoes really need hot temperatures to ripen properly. Living in tomato, sweet corn and asparagus country means I rarely eat those vegetables except at home -- it's too disappointing!
We do suffer from a tomato blight around here, something that infects the soil. The fix is to grow tomatoes in different places every few years.
This summer's very cool weather here in southwest Ohio reinforced an old observation: tomatoes really need hot temperatures to ripen properly. Living in tomato, sweet corn and asparagus country means I rarely eat those vegetables except at home -- it's too disappointing!
We do suffer from a tomato blight around here, something that infects the soil. The fix is to grow tomatoes in different places every few years.
Crop rotation helps but the commercial guys cannot easily do this. In Almeria they switch to melon in the summer because it is too hot, but they don't really grow in soil as I argued above.
Sep 30, 2014, 9:25 am
#30
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The raf tomato is obviously not representative of the vast majority of Almerian commercial production. It is not clear to me if you are arguing that only homegrown raf tomatoes are any good. It is also a commercial, high-end cultivar in Almeria.
Secondly, the fact that they grow in a 10 cm top layer of sand/gravel makes it "sand culture", which is the most basic form of hydroponic culture. I called it semi-hydroponic because from a business perspective (my angle) then there is not an opportunity to sell substrate to these growers unless you operate a local sand quarry. Do you really think that the barren, dry soil below the sand layer contributes to the taste apart from maybe the salt content? Thirdly, the salinity is largely due to the poor quality of the water in Almeria, which in turn makes the ground saline. They specifically avoid coco peat (coir) substrate in Almeria because it contains salt. But raf was specifically engineered not only resist fusarium but also for these conditions.
With increasing use of perlite in Almeria it is likely that raf tomatoes are also grown in perlite today, which is "real" hydroponics. Perlite has low water retention so is good for "stressed" growth conditions, which the raf cultivar requires. The beauty of hydroponics is that you have full control of the growing conditions inclduing the salt content. For crops that focus on price and yield then taste will suffer since the cultivation is engineered for maximum yield. A Dutch glass greenhouse has about 4X the yield of an Almerian plastic greenhouse. But you can adjust it to optimize taste as well, which is viable for a premium cultivar like raf.
http://www.actahort.org/books/927/927_61.htm This article notes the hydroponic growth conditions to optimize taste and also did not find yield reduction compared to conventional cultivation for raf in the second study. They did, however, experience lower yield for Kumato. But if they yield does not increase then it could be argued that there is no point doing hydroponics in Almeria. However when I talked to operations in Almeria their focus was on multi-year use of their substrate, which is possible with perlite. Perlite is also cheap so they can possibly increase efficiency and reduce costs by not having to deal with the soil. My understanding is that they reapply the fertilizer and sand every time they plant using the conventional method.
Kumato is a Syngenta premium cultivar ("brown" tomato) that was also engineered for Almerian cultivation (high salinity) but is now grown hydroponically around the world. It is widely available in North America and I buy them frequently. Here they are grown hydroponically in Canada.
You also seem not to recognize that there is a significant North American premium tomato segment where the tomatoes are grown hydroponically in small greenhouses. This is the high end, boutique tomato business. The key to premium, tasty tomatoes is selecting the right cultivar, allowing them to ripen on the vine, and not optimizing the growth conditions for yield. I assure you that these premium heirloom tomatoes are top notch; the type that you find in "farmer's markets". Sure, there are also "hobby" farmers that grow in soil.
There is also a notable exception (larger operation) in the US in Maine, called Backyard Farms. They grow conventional vine ripened non-heirloom type tomatoes but they are quite tasty and available in premium stores in the Northeast US but I have even seen them in supermarkets. They have 42 acres of high-tech Dutch style greenhouse (and this size is typical of a smaller grower in Holland) and the climatic conditions are similar to Holland and worse in the winter. In fact, it is similar to the operations that you find in Ontario, but here the focus seems to be more on the premium end of the market. I buy these tomatoes and they are good. These northern operations also use grow lights in the winter months to compensate for lack of light. This, along with heating, is expensive. I am sure that you have seen the lit up greenhouses flying into Schiphol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_Farms
p.s. Not much about Japan here but I think their tomato culture is probably hydroponic. And the tomatoes are pretty tasty.
Secondly, the fact that they grow in a 10 cm top layer of sand/gravel makes it "sand culture", which is the most basic form of hydroponic culture. I called it semi-hydroponic because from a business perspective (my angle) then there is not an opportunity to sell substrate to these growers unless you operate a local sand quarry. Do you really think that the barren, dry soil below the sand layer contributes to the taste apart from maybe the salt content? Thirdly, the salinity is largely due to the poor quality of the water in Almeria, which in turn makes the ground saline. They specifically avoid coco peat (coir) substrate in Almeria because it contains salt. But raf was specifically engineered not only resist fusarium but also for these conditions.
With increasing use of perlite in Almeria it is likely that raf tomatoes are also grown in perlite today, which is "real" hydroponics. Perlite has low water retention so is good for "stressed" growth conditions, which the raf cultivar requires. The beauty of hydroponics is that you have full control of the growing conditions inclduing the salt content. For crops that focus on price and yield then taste will suffer since the cultivation is engineered for maximum yield. A Dutch glass greenhouse has about 4X the yield of an Almerian plastic greenhouse. But you can adjust it to optimize taste as well, which is viable for a premium cultivar like raf.
http://www.actahort.org/books/927/927_61.htm This article notes the hydroponic growth conditions to optimize taste and also did not find yield reduction compared to conventional cultivation for raf in the second study. They did, however, experience lower yield for Kumato. But if they yield does not increase then it could be argued that there is no point doing hydroponics in Almeria. However when I talked to operations in Almeria their focus was on multi-year use of their substrate, which is possible with perlite. Perlite is also cheap so they can possibly increase efficiency and reduce costs by not having to deal with the soil. My understanding is that they reapply the fertilizer and sand every time they plant using the conventional method.
Kumato is a Syngenta premium cultivar ("brown" tomato) that was also engineered for Almerian cultivation (high salinity) but is now grown hydroponically around the world. It is widely available in North America and I buy them frequently. Here they are grown hydroponically in Canada.
You also seem not to recognize that there is a significant North American premium tomato segment where the tomatoes are grown hydroponically in small greenhouses. This is the high end, boutique tomato business. The key to premium, tasty tomatoes is selecting the right cultivar, allowing them to ripen on the vine, and not optimizing the growth conditions for yield. I assure you that these premium heirloom tomatoes are top notch; the type that you find in "farmer's markets". Sure, there are also "hobby" farmers that grow in soil.
There is also a notable exception (larger operation) in the US in Maine, called Backyard Farms. They grow conventional vine ripened non-heirloom type tomatoes but they are quite tasty and available in premium stores in the Northeast US but I have even seen them in supermarkets. They have 42 acres of high-tech Dutch style greenhouse (and this size is typical of a smaller grower in Holland) and the climatic conditions are similar to Holland and worse in the winter. In fact, it is similar to the operations that you find in Ontario, but here the focus seems to be more on the premium end of the market. I buy these tomatoes and they are good. These northern operations also use grow lights in the winter months to compensate for lack of light. This, along with heating, is expensive. I am sure that you have seen the lit up greenhouses flying into Schiphol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_Farms
p.s. Not much about Japan here but I think their tomato culture is probably hydroponic. And the tomatoes are pretty tasty.
In Almeria, La Vega (specifically the fields of Níjar and Lower Andarax) has ALWAYS had excellent soil for tomatoes. The naturally drier plains of Cañada and Nijar required the new techniques introduced in the 60s both to make it possible to grow crops in their arid, high saline soils and to make it economically feasible to do so.
It so happens that the high salinity of the local soil suits the RAF tomato, a very odd breed with a low (about 6 trusses per plant) yield that is at its best when sown in the Autumn.
The whole arrangement is peculiar and a bit freaky and cannot be properly replicated anywhere else, which is why the prices are sky high for this particular tomato. It is about the only decent tasting tomato available in the early Spring and the Spaniards know it.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SOIL.
And despite the great flavour of a La Vega grown RAF tomato harvested in March, I'd rather have a summer picked tomato grown from the ground in one of my friends or family's Murcian or Alicantian huertos. Same with strawberries, even the best of the December crop don't compare to good soil grown strawberries in their season.
Am still not subscribing.
It so happens that the high salinity of the local soil suits the RAF tomato, a very odd breed with a low (about 6 trusses per plant) yield that is at its best when sown in the Autumn.
The whole arrangement is peculiar and a bit freaky and cannot be properly replicated anywhere else, which is why the prices are sky high for this particular tomato. It is about the only decent tasting tomato available in the early Spring and the Spaniards know it.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SOIL.
And despite the great flavour of a La Vega grown RAF tomato harvested in March, I'd rather have a summer picked tomato grown from the ground in one of my friends or family's Murcian or Alicantian huertos. Same with strawberries, even the best of the December crop don't compare to good soil grown strawberries in their season.
Am still not subscribing.