Coffee, Wine, and Cocktails in Italy (Merged Thread)
Feb 4, 2017, 11:18 am
#16
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Heraklion, Greece
Posts: 7,565
I only drink caffe' doppio in Italy and elsewhere. I love it and never has a barrista looked at me in a strange way. By the way, chemically speaking not taste-wise, a caffe' doppio is not stronger than an average single cup of coffee elsewhere. The espresso brewing (very short contact with the water) results in about half the amount of caffeine in the coffee compared to French, German, or US coffee* and even less compared to the instant stuff. By the way, my own record of single caffe' in one day in Italy was 16 or so (I forgot the ecat number), back in 1993. I really enjoyed my sleep afterwards**. 
* Did not mention Brittish coffee as this is simply undrinkable...
** Called the caffeine paradox in pharmacology!
* Did not mention Brittish coffee as this is simply undrinkable...
** Called the caffeine paradox in pharmacology!
Feb 4, 2017, 2:07 pm
#17
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
Programs: AA EXP >4 MM, Lifetime Plat
Posts: 2,881
A few days ago, before I wrote my first response, I wanted to get a better explanation so I stopped at La Barrera, a bar in Monti where the bartender has special degrees in coffee making in the wall. He makes my favorite coffee in Rome. I asked him and a customer who was there, "Is it OK to refer to caffe' As espresso." The response was "sure, they'll know what you mean." I asked, "But is that what it's called, because you never hear anyone come in here or anywhere else and ask for an espresso."
The explanations they made, which I alluded to upthread, is that people correctly call it caffe', and with good reason, but a bartender will know what you mean if you ask for an espresso. The following pretty much sums the discussion.
A Moka is the primary way that people make coffee in their house or apartment. It's sometimes called French Press in other countries. The product is identical to what comes out of an espresso machine. Coffee grounds are packed into a round holder just like in an espresso machine. You put water into a separate lower chamber and heat it on the stove. The water turns to steam, goes into the upper chamber, and under its own pressure, is pushed down through the coffee grinds, and funneled into a receptacle. The process has the same physics as an espresso machine, but it takes about 5 minutes for all the water to boil and be turned into steam. It's not feasible to take 5 minutes to brew a cup of coffee in a bar.
A bartender in Torino invented the espresso machine. It also pushes boiling water down through the coffee grounds under pressure. Older models used to have a lever you pressed down to force the steaming hot water down through the grounds, into a cup. Now, even that's automated.
As they explained to me to clarify what I already knew, it's impossible for people to afford to have an espresso machine in their apartment, but everyone has a Moka pot. People don't say to a friend who is visiting, would you like a Moka? They ask if they would like a caffe', and if they say yes, they make it in their Moka pot. If you go to a bar or restaurant and you want the same thing, you ask for a caffe' and they make it in their espresso machine.
Either way, you aren't drinking Moka or espresso, which refers to two methods for brewing the same thing, coffee. If you go to a restaurant and ask for a Moka, they will respond that they only make coffee with an espresso machine. If you go to someone's house and ask for an espresso they will respond that they don't have an espresso machine, they use a Moka pot to make caffe. In Italy, its called caffe' and is not referred to by the brewing technique that was used. There are only two ways to make coffee, with an espresso machine, or a Moka Pot, also referred to as French Press.
Ordering a doppio has a false bad rap because the idea is that you should enjoy your caffe'. You should be relaxed enough that if you want another, you just order another. It just takes 15-20 seconds to make another. Ordering doppio is a little "bruta figura" because it signifies that you are in a rush. You don't often hear it ordered. Italians, if they want another, just order another.
I still order doppio macchiato because sometimes I am in an un-Italian rush, and my head is clouded from staying up late the night before, and I need a good jolt!
Last edited by Perche; Feb 4, 2017 at 2:49 pm
Feb 4, 2017, 3:52 pm
#18
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 3,955
A Moka is the primary way that people make coffee in their house or apartment. It's sometimes called French Press in other countries. The product is identical to what comes out of an espresso machine. Coffee grounds are packed into a round holder just like in an espresso machine. You put water into a separate lower chamber and heat it on the stove. The water turns to steam, goes into the upper chamber, and under its own pressure, is pushed down through the coffee grinds, and funneled into a receptacle. The process has the same physics as an espresso machine, but it takes about 5 minutes for all the water to boil and be turned into steam. It's not feasible to take 5 minutes to brew a cup of coffee in a bar.
Pressure, where moka is ~1.5 bar and an espresso machine is ~8-15 bar.
Temperature. Moka is going to work at a little over the standard boiling point, while espresso is ~200F.
Espresso has la crema on top, but the moka won't do the same thing. That said, moka makes perfectly good coffee and is my go-to in Italy when I make it in the apartment.
Also, moka isn't a french press. This is a french press, and you add hot water + grinds, then use the plunger to strain to the bottom. Usually a coarser grind as well compared to espresso.
Feb 4, 2017, 5:30 pm
#19
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
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Posts: 2,881
Espresso machines and moka pots do not make identical coffee. The physics are different. A moka pot boils water and forces it up through a funnel and portafilter containing packed grinds. An espresso machine is similar in that it forces hot water through grinds, but there are two major differences:
Pressure, where moka is ~1.5 bar and an espresso machine is ~8-15 bar.
Temperature. Moka is going to work at a little over the standard boiling point, while espresso is ~200F.
Espresso has la crema on top, but the moka won't do the same thing. That said, moka makes perfectly good coffee and is my go-to in Italy when I make it in the apartment.
Also, moka isn't a french press. This is a french press, and you add hot water + grinds, then use the plunger to strain to the bottom. Usually a coarser grind as well compared to espresso.
Pressure, where moka is ~1.5 bar and an espresso machine is ~8-15 bar.
Temperature. Moka is going to work at a little over the standard boiling point, while espresso is ~200F.
Espresso has la crema on top, but the moka won't do the same thing. That said, moka makes perfectly good coffee and is my go-to in Italy when I make it in the apartment.
Also, moka isn't a french press. This is a french press, and you add hot water + grinds, then use the plunger to strain to the bottom. Usually a coarser grind as well compared to espresso.
A Moka pot is pictured below. If you rent an apartment in Italy you will never see the French Press coffee maker you pictured, but you will almost always see the Moka below as part of the kitchen furnishings. The Moka is the way almost all coffee is made in Italy in the home or in apartments, and using an espresso machine is the way the almost identical coffee is made in a restaurant.
The physics are not exactly the same, but the method is, as the espresso machine is an industrial strength Moka. It puts more pressure on the steam/water being pushed through the coffee grounds than a simple Moka pot can. An espresso machine is a Moka pot on steroids. Do you agree, it's the same process? Very hot water/steam is pushed under pressure through coffee grinds (which is what I meant by the same physics), as opposed to the drip method, of just dripping hot water onto coffee grinds, and letting gravity do its thing?
Drip pots are what you find in homes and in business offices throughout the USA, where someone brews a pot at 7:00 AM at work, someone wants coffee at 9:00, and drinks burnt coffee from the same glass pot that has been burning on the heater plate for two hours, or lukewarm coffee from a thermos.
You are right about the grinds. In a drip machine or a french press, the regular way they grind coffee in the USA will do. If you buy coffee, the bag will say, "for drip machines," or it will say, "espresso." The beans are not different. For a drip machine, where the water just passively soaks its way down through the coffee grinds, the coffee doesn't need to be finely ground, because it has time. The water is just going to be soaking in the coffee grounds until gravity brings it down. In an espresso machine or in a Moka, the water and steam pass through the grinds very quickly, so they are very finely ground in order to maximize contact.
That's why someone in an apartment in the USA might say (using a Mr. Coffee or Coffee Maker), "Would you like me to brew a pot of coffee, it will just take take 15 minutes." In Italy, someone with a Moka will say, "Can I make you a coffee," and it is understood that the coffee will be ready in 4-5 minutes. In a bar with an espresso machine, it will take 15 seconds.
The main thing is that you don't ask for an espresso, a moka, a french press, or an espresso. You ask for coffee. Those terms refer to how you are going to make the coffee. If someone asks you if you want coffee, you don't tell them how you want them to make it. Or if you go to a bar, you don't tell them, "I want a drip," or "I want an espresso." You ask for coffee, and they make it they way they make coffee.
Single use little coffee pods have been taking off as another way to make coffee, and is becoming very common in offices in the USA. It's estimated that 1/3 of homes and offices have these coffee makers where you put in a little pod, close it and press a button, and it makes an individual cup of coffee.
The inventor of that died last year, and cursed the day he invented it. Not so much because of the poor quality of the coffee, but because all of those tiny little individual capsules of coffee used for each and every cup has resulted in millions and millions of pounds of unrecyclable plastic per year being stored in landfills. You can throw your coffee grounds into your compost, garbage, or wherever, and they won't pollute the planet, but not so for those little individual use pods. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ecyclable.html
Last edited by Perche; Feb 4, 2017 at 5:37 pm
Feb 4, 2017, 7:35 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Heraklion, Greece
Posts: 7,565
The info provided by both Perche and PWMTrav is grosso modo correct, still let me refine some minor points in no particular order.
- In the Moka machine the water should never boil! The water goes up the "tube" through the pressure in the area above the water, as correctly shown by the cartoon. If it boils, resulting from too much heating, the bubbles prevent it from going up. One then has to take it off the heating source, cool it a bit under running water, lower the flame and then continue.
- The french press is anything but similar to the moka/espresso procedure. The coffee is left with the hot water for some time and then the ground beans are pushed down so that one does not get them in the mouth. Although the diffusion process is slowed down, it still continues such that this kind of coffee usually has the highest concentration of caffeine per cup (especially the "second" cup).
- About 20 years ago, Bialetti (Italy's #1 moka machine producer) brought to the market a "kinky" moka machine that would produce foam at the end of the brewing procedure. The problem was that the mechanism was heat-sensitive and would also get sort of deregulated, with the result being often a "normal" moka coffee without foam. Although excellent when it worked (I bought a couple and used them for a while), they were a commercial flop.
- People do have small espresso machines at home. I used to have them from 1989 on till about 5-6 years ago when I went back to moka. When I bought it, the owner of the store told me it was the Rolls Royce among the coffee machines. The reason for switching back was that the poor quality of the water where I live (too much Ca++) would ask for very frequent decalcification leading to a need to use demineralized water. In a couple of words, simply too much fuss, and one day I said ENOUGH!.
- The little coffee pods not only are bad for the environment, they also are a rip-off. The price per cup is about 3-4 times as high as with any other method used. People don't realize that because the individual cup costs very little. Here's the calculation: Let's assume that a 250 gr pack of Italian coffee costs 3.50 € (according to the country, brand, store, etc. it can vary of course). With 6-7 grams of coffee per cup (as used by Italian bars), the cost for the coffee would be ~0.08 € per cup. Compare to the ~0.30 € (average) for one of those pods. Look at what one pays for a bit of plastic (and speed). The fact that the distributors make so much money can best be seen by the fact that even Nescafe invested so much in... non-instant coffee.
- In Italy the professional espresso machines in the bars of the North are made such that, when used on fully automatic mode, they'll let less water through the ground coffee than the machines in the south. I remember one particular bar in via Mezzocannone in Naples (last time I was there was about 10-15 years ago) where the cafe' consisted almost only of foam and... taste: plain phantastic. I had been told that the owner had manipulated the machine and he risked that it would blow up. Given it was in Naples, I'd say se non e' vero, e' ben trovato
- In the Moka machine the water should never boil! The water goes up the "tube" through the pressure in the area above the water, as correctly shown by the cartoon. If it boils, resulting from too much heating, the bubbles prevent it from going up. One then has to take it off the heating source, cool it a bit under running water, lower the flame and then continue.
- The french press is anything but similar to the moka/espresso procedure. The coffee is left with the hot water for some time and then the ground beans are pushed down so that one does not get them in the mouth. Although the diffusion process is slowed down, it still continues such that this kind of coffee usually has the highest concentration of caffeine per cup (especially the "second" cup).
- About 20 years ago, Bialetti (Italy's #1 moka machine producer) brought to the market a "kinky" moka machine that would produce foam at the end of the brewing procedure. The problem was that the mechanism was heat-sensitive and would also get sort of deregulated, with the result being often a "normal" moka coffee without foam. Although excellent when it worked (I bought a couple and used them for a while), they were a commercial flop.
- People do have small espresso machines at home. I used to have them from 1989 on till about 5-6 years ago when I went back to moka. When I bought it, the owner of the store told me it was the Rolls Royce among the coffee machines. The reason for switching back was that the poor quality of the water where I live (too much Ca++) would ask for very frequent decalcification leading to a need to use demineralized water. In a couple of words, simply too much fuss, and one day I said ENOUGH!.
- The little coffee pods not only are bad for the environment, they also are a rip-off. The price per cup is about 3-4 times as high as with any other method used. People don't realize that because the individual cup costs very little. Here's the calculation: Let's assume that a 250 gr pack of Italian coffee costs 3.50 € (according to the country, brand, store, etc. it can vary of course). With 6-7 grams of coffee per cup (as used by Italian bars), the cost for the coffee would be ~0.08 € per cup. Compare to the ~0.30 € (average) for one of those pods. Look at what one pays for a bit of plastic (and speed). The fact that the distributors make so much money can best be seen by the fact that even Nescafe invested so much in... non-instant coffee.
- In Italy the professional espresso machines in the bars of the North are made such that, when used on fully automatic mode, they'll let less water through the ground coffee than the machines in the south. I remember one particular bar in via Mezzocannone in Naples (last time I was there was about 10-15 years ago) where the cafe' consisted almost only of foam and... taste: plain phantastic. I had been told that the owner had manipulated the machine and he risked that it would blow up. Given it was in Naples, I'd say se non e' vero, e' ben trovato
Last edited by KLouis; Feb 4, 2017 at 7:40 pm
Feb 4, 2017, 10:11 pm
#21
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
Programs: AA EXP >4 MM, Lifetime Plat
Posts: 2,881
The info provided by both Perche and PWMTrav is grosso modo correct, still let me refine some minor points in no particular order.
- In the Moka machine the water should never boil! The water goes up the "tube" through the pressure in the area above the water, as correctly shown by the cartoon. If it boils, resulting from too much heating, the bubbles prevent it from going up. One then has to take it off the heating source, cool it a bit under running water, lower the flame and then continue.
- The french press is anything but similar to the moka/espresso procedure. The coffee is left with the hot water for some time and then the ground beans are pushed down so that one does not get them in the mouth. Although the diffusion process is slowed down, it still continues such that this kind of coffee usually has the highest concentration of caffeine per cup (especially the "second" cup).
- About 20 years ago, Bialetti (Italy's #1 moka machine producer) brought to the market a "kinky" moka machine that would produce foam at the end of the brewing procedure. The problem was that the mechanism was heat-sensitive and would also get sort of deregulated, with the result being often a "normal" moka coffee without foam. Although excellent when it worked (I bought a couple and used them for a while), they were a commercial flop.
- People do have small espresso machines at home. I used to have them from 1989 on till about 5-6 years ago when I went back to moka. When I bought it, the owner of the store told me it was the Rolls Royce among the coffee machines. The reason for switching back was that the poor quality of the water where I live (too much Ca++) would ask for very frequent decalcification leading to a need to use demineralized water. In a couple of words, simply too much fuss, and one day I said ENOUGH!.
- The little coffee pods not only are bad for the environment, they also are a rip-off. The price per cup is about 3-4 times as high as with any other method used. People don't realize that because the individual cup costs very little. Here's the calculation: Let's assume that a 250 gr pack of Italian coffee costs 3.50 € (according to the country, brand, store, etc. it can vary of course). With 6-7 grams of coffee per cup (as used by Italian bars), the cost for the coffee would be ~0.08 € per cup. Compare to the ~0.30 € (average) for one of those pods. Look at what one pays for a bit of plastic (and speed). The fact that the distributors make so much money can best be seen by the fact that even Nescafe invested so much in... non-instant coffee.
- In Italy the professional espresso machines in the bars of the North are made such that, when used on fully automatic mode, they'll let less water through the ground coffee than the machines in the south. I remember one particular bar in via Mezzocannone in Naples (last time I was there was about 10-15 years ago) where the cafe' consisted almost only of foam and... taste: plain phantastic. I had been told that the owner had manipulated the machine and he risked that it would blow up. Given it was in Naples, I'd say se non e' vero, e' ben trovato
- In the Moka machine the water should never boil! The water goes up the "tube" through the pressure in the area above the water, as correctly shown by the cartoon. If it boils, resulting from too much heating, the bubbles prevent it from going up. One then has to take it off the heating source, cool it a bit under running water, lower the flame and then continue.
- The french press is anything but similar to the moka/espresso procedure. The coffee is left with the hot water for some time and then the ground beans are pushed down so that one does not get them in the mouth. Although the diffusion process is slowed down, it still continues such that this kind of coffee usually has the highest concentration of caffeine per cup (especially the "second" cup).
- About 20 years ago, Bialetti (Italy's #1 moka machine producer) brought to the market a "kinky" moka machine that would produce foam at the end of the brewing procedure. The problem was that the mechanism was heat-sensitive and would also get sort of deregulated, with the result being often a "normal" moka coffee without foam. Although excellent when it worked (I bought a couple and used them for a while), they were a commercial flop.
- People do have small espresso machines at home. I used to have them from 1989 on till about 5-6 years ago when I went back to moka. When I bought it, the owner of the store told me it was the Rolls Royce among the coffee machines. The reason for switching back was that the poor quality of the water where I live (too much Ca++) would ask for very frequent decalcification leading to a need to use demineralized water. In a couple of words, simply too much fuss, and one day I said ENOUGH!.
- The little coffee pods not only are bad for the environment, they also are a rip-off. The price per cup is about 3-4 times as high as with any other method used. People don't realize that because the individual cup costs very little. Here's the calculation: Let's assume that a 250 gr pack of Italian coffee costs 3.50 € (according to the country, brand, store, etc. it can vary of course). With 6-7 grams of coffee per cup (as used by Italian bars), the cost for the coffee would be ~0.08 € per cup. Compare to the ~0.30 € (average) for one of those pods. Look at what one pays for a bit of plastic (and speed). The fact that the distributors make so much money can best be seen by the fact that even Nescafe invested so much in... non-instant coffee.
- In Italy the professional espresso machines in the bars of the North are made such that, when used on fully automatic mode, they'll let less water through the ground coffee than the machines in the south. I remember one particular bar in via Mezzocannone in Naples (last time I was there was about 10-15 years ago) where the cafe' consisted almost only of foam and... taste: plain phantastic. I had been told that the owner had manipulated the machine and he risked that it would blow up. Given it was in Naples, I'd say se non e' vero, e' ben trovato
A Moka is in every apartment in Italy, and that is what I use here and there (I just got back to San Francisco). In the USA, if there are many people over for dinner, since I don't have an espresso machine to make a lot of coffee in a short amount of time for everyone to drink together, I'll make a pot of drip.
Miniature espresso machines compatible for the home or office are made, and are available at Costco, Target, Amazon, etc. However, for use by 1-2 people, I'm not sure there is enough difference between coffee made in an espresso machine and by a Moka pot. It would be difficult to tell the two apart in a blind taste test. I think that home espresso machines are still an expensive niche product.
Still, I almost bought one "for the team," at my last place of work in California. I didn't want to have to drink any more coffee made from those little individual coffee pods. In the rack where they kept them in the office, which I appreciated because they were trying to be nice, they kept the little pods of, "Italian Espresso roast" for me, next to the "Vanilla Caramel" coffee pods for everyone else.
Last edited by Perche; Feb 4, 2017 at 10:41 pm
Feb 5, 2017, 7:05 am
#22
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 3,955
Depending on which pods you're talking about, I think the Nespresso pods do a decent job. They're just expensive and generate a ton of waste. The coffee that comes out is good, though.
At home I use a Saeco Magic Deluxe superautomatic that my dad gave me in 2004. The boiler seals are finally starting to give, but for what at that time cost $400 (for a refurbished unit), it's paid for itself many times over. At some point this year I'll either swap out the boiler or replace the seal and keep going.
On the road, I use a moka if a stove is available.
At home I use a Saeco Magic Deluxe superautomatic that my dad gave me in 2004. The boiler seals are finally starting to give, but for what at that time cost $400 (for a refurbished unit), it's paid for itself many times over. At some point this year I'll either swap out the boiler or replace the seal and keep going.
On the road, I use a moka if a stove is available.
Feb 5, 2017, 9:09 am
#23
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
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Good info. I have all three methods in San Francisco, where i arrived last night. On the left is the French Press, which PWMTrav pushed me into learning how to actually use, but I doubt that I ever will. In the middle is the drip. I've never seen one in Italy and doubt that you could buy one there because American coffee is way too diluted for Italian taste. I suspect the French Press is too.
The Moka is as close to an espresso machine as you can get: hot water/steam pushed down under pressure through finely ground coffee.
That's another good point. There is not a such thing as espresso beans, and "regular" coffee beans. It's in the grinding. Using the espresso or Moka method, the coffee grounds don't soak in the water, as they do for French Press or drip.
With espresso/moka, the coffee has to be ground very finely to give it more surface area to maximize contact with the water that is pushed through very quickly under pressure. In the market they have unground beans, beans for drip, and beans for espresso machines. Same beans; unground, roughly ground, finely ground. https://bluebottlecoffee.com/prepara...rfectly-ground
The Moka is as close to an espresso machine as you can get: hot water/steam pushed down under pressure through finely ground coffee.
That's another good point. There is not a such thing as espresso beans, and "regular" coffee beans. It's in the grinding. Using the espresso or Moka method, the coffee grounds don't soak in the water, as they do for French Press or drip.
With espresso/moka, the coffee has to be ground very finely to give it more surface area to maximize contact with the water that is pushed through very quickly under pressure. In the market they have unground beans, beans for drip, and beans for espresso machines. Same beans; unground, roughly ground, finely ground. https://bluebottlecoffee.com/prepara...rfectly-ground
Feb 5, 2017, 9:14 am
#24
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 3,955
Anyway, using it is easy. Put grids in the bottom, same ratio that you'd use for automatic drip - same grind too. Add water at your desired temperature, stir if needed, and let it sit for a few minutes to brew. Put the plunger/lid on top, and push down slowly when you're done. Most of the grinds end up at the bottom. You'll notice the coffee is cloudier when you pour it - I think part of it is the extra aeration from the screen on the plunger, but also because it doesn't remove all of the fine particulates and oils like a paper filter would.
This all takes a little more time than drip, but I don't own a drip machine so when I want American coffee, this is the way. The real reason I own a french press, though, is for loose leaf tea. I rarely make non-espresso coffee at home.
Feb 23, 2017, 4:50 pm
#25
Moderator: Delta SkyMiles, Luxury Hotels, TravelBuzz! and Italy
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 26,543
Good info. I have all three methods in San Francisco, where i arrived last night. On the left is the French Press, which PWMTrav pushed me into learning how to actually use, but I doubt that I ever will. In the middle is the drip. I've never seen one in Italy and doubt that you could buy one there because American coffee is way too diluted for Italian taste. I suspect the French Press is too.
The Moka is as close to an espresso machine as you can get: hot water/steam pushed down under pressure through finely ground coffee.
That's another good point. There is not a such thing as espresso beans, and "regular" coffee beans. It's in the grinding. Using the espresso or Moka method, the coffee grounds don't soak in the water, as they do for French Press or drip.
With espresso/moka, the coffee has to be ground very finely to give it more surface area to maximize contact with the water that is pushed through very quickly under pressure. In the market they have unground beans, beans for drip, and beans for espresso machines. Same beans; unground, roughly ground, finely ground. https://bluebottlecoffee.com/prepara...rfectly-ground
The Moka is as close to an espresso machine as you can get: hot water/steam pushed down under pressure through finely ground coffee.
That's another good point. There is not a such thing as espresso beans, and "regular" coffee beans. It's in the grinding. Using the espresso or Moka method, the coffee grounds don't soak in the water, as they do for French Press or drip.
With espresso/moka, the coffee has to be ground very finely to give it more surface area to maximize contact with the water that is pushed through very quickly under pressure. In the market they have unground beans, beans for drip, and beans for espresso machines. Same beans; unground, roughly ground, finely ground. https://bluebottlecoffee.com/prepara...rfectly-ground
Feb 23, 2017, 7:00 pm
#26
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For French press a.k.a. cafetiere, you're supposed to pour off boil water (wait 10 seconds depending on kettle) onto the grounds, wait 30 sec for the ground to bloom, stir then let sit for another 2 1/2 minutes. Whole process of brewing is 3 minutes, supposedly.
I use moka pots exclusively these days. Found a 4 cup Bialetti in a thrift shop for $3 with a few extra seals (still using the well-used one it came with after 2 years), then an 8-cup for about 2-3x as much (needed a new gasket - the person who owned it previously tried silicon tube auto gasket!), then an almost-new 10(?) cup stainless steel for $6 and more recently, a brand-new-in box 2 cup for $6. All Italian-made Bialettis (I understand new production has been moved to Rumania).
Was thinking of buying a machine when we get a house but I think the counterspace and mantenance required is too much.
I use moka pots exclusively these days. Found a 4 cup Bialetti in a thrift shop for $3 with a few extra seals (still using the well-used one it came with after 2 years), then an 8-cup for about 2-3x as much (needed a new gasket - the person who owned it previously tried silicon tube auto gasket!), then an almost-new 10(?) cup stainless steel for $6 and more recently, a brand-new-in box 2 cup for $6. All Italian-made Bialettis (I understand new production has been moved to Rumania).
Was thinking of buying a machine when we get a house but I think the counterspace and mantenance required is too much.
Last edited by YVR Cockroach; Feb 23, 2017 at 9:08 pm
Feb 23, 2017, 8:19 pm
#27
Join Date: Mar 2011
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I am not a coffee drinker but my husband is passionate about coffee. He took your recommendation and is using The Moka you described and is very happy with his coffee. His question is what is your preference as to brand? The Moka came with a bag of Illy Moka coffee (Amazon package) and he is very pleased. Is there an even better option? Thanks.
For French press, you're supposed to pour off boil water (wait 10 seconds depending on kettle) onto the grounds, wait 30 sec for the ground to bloom, stir then let sit for another 2 1/2 minutes. Whole process of brewing is 3 minutes, supposedly.
I use moka pots exclusively these days. Found a 4 cup Bialetti in a thrift shop for $3 with a few extra seals (still using the well-used one it came with after 2 years), then an 8-cup for about 2-3x as much (needed a new gasket - the person who owned it previously tried silicon tube auto gasket!), then an almost-new 10(?) cup stainless steel for $6 and more recently, a brand-new-in box 2 cup for $6. All Italian-made Bialettis (I understand new production has been moved to Rumania).
Was thinking of buying a machine when we get a house but I think the counterspace and mantenance required is too much.
I use moka pots exclusively these days. Found a 4 cup Bialetti in a thrift shop for $3 with a few extra seals (still using the well-used one it came with after 2 years), then an 8-cup for about 2-3x as much (needed a new gasket - the person who owned it previously tried silicon tube auto gasket!), then an almost-new 10(?) cup stainless steel for $6 and more recently, a brand-new-in box 2 cup for $6. All Italian-made Bialettis (I understand new production has been moved to Rumania).
Was thinking of buying a machine when we get a house but I think the counterspace and mantenance required is too much.
I'm still a little on the fence about my favorite brand. It's between Lavazza and Illy. I'm leaning towards Lavazza, which I think is the most popular consumer brand in Italy. It costs about half as much as Illy. I finished a can of Lavazza yesterday that had been in the fridge since before I went to Venice almost two weeks ago. It was terrific. I opened a fresh can of Illy that was in the cupboard this morning, and it wasn't half as good.
I was wondering if it was the amount of sugar or cream, and I kept adjusting it, but the Lavazza yesterday was better. I keep buying the more expensive Illy and going back and forth but it just doesn't seem to be as good. I guess it's a matter of preference.
Drip coffee pots with a timer are great for getting up to work and having the coffee already brewed, but coffee left open to air in a drip pot overnight is made out of stale, dry grounds by morning. I load my Moka the night before then put it in a plastic bag and keep it in the refrigerator overnight, to keep it fresh.
In the morning when I wake up it comes out of the fridge and goes onto the stove. I put a little cream in the coffee cup and put it in the microwave set to 20 seconds with a little sugar, then go take a few minutes to freshen up. By the time I'm back in the kitchen the coffee is ready to be poured into the hot milk. This routine doesn't take more than a minute or two longer than a drip machine with a timer, and yields far more delicious coffee.
Feb 23, 2017, 9:33 pm
#29
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Good info. I have all three methods in San Francisco, where i arrived last night. On the left is the French Press, which PWMTrav pushed me into learning how to actually use, but I doubt that I ever will. In the middle is the drip. I've never seen one in Italy and doubt that you could buy one there because American coffee is way too diluted for Italian taste. I suspect the French Press is too.
The drip maker is distressingly common in French homes.
Both methods above taste insipid after you've been drinking moka pots.
With espresso/moka, the coffee has to be ground very finely to give it more surface area to maximize contact with the water that is pushed through very quickly under pressure.
The question is whether one should start with hot/boiling water or cold water and what heat levels to use? U.S. users seem to prefer using hot/near boiling water and a slow heat, while Italians apparently use cold water and a higher heat. I've gone to cold water and moderate heat.
Feb 23, 2017, 9:38 pm
#30
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In my neck of the woods, there are at least two labels/grades of Lavazza. The most common are red label and crema e gusto. My wife thinks the red label is gut rot. We tend to buy whatever locally roasted coffees are on sale but never use dark roasted coffee as the flavour isn't that good. Also bought, for various reasons, a Lebanese coffee with cardamon to try.