Old Jun 18, 2016, 4:39 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: HadesNL
Update 2023:
- it seems no new RA have been invited by IHG
- criteria for RA requalification are still unknown
- geographical location of member / country account registration seems of some impact due of covid19(restrictions/availability)
- RA is processed in weekly batches starting december 2022
- proof by nicolas75 shows RA qualification for 2024 seems to be strictly based on IC hotels only (not Regent, Kimpton, SixSenses anymore)

As per Tim O'Brien's post about IHG-corporate explaining RA criteria:

As you are aware,
Royal Ambassador is our invitation only tier with the number of members invited each year
limited to ensure our hotels are able to consistently deliver on the benefits promise,
elevating your stay experience at InterContinental Hotels & Resorts.

Although we do not currently have a published criteria for Royal Ambassador,
consideration is determined by variable activities within a members account such as
- qualified paid room nights & spend across our luxury brands (, 2023 EDIT: Post-Pandemic from 2024 InterContinental only : Pre-Pandemic also Kimpton & Regent ) ,
- member region,
- primary hotels,
- category (of the hotel class / $ price levels compared to currency rates / competition / city / region / country / continent )
- tenure (repeat custom / average spend at hotel)
Accompanying or adjoining reservations,
such as the additional rooms of your family etc are not included for Royal Ambassador consideration
but are included in determining Spire Elite status within IHG Rewards Club
.


* FT:IHG forum community group consensus / empirical evidence shows
- that members must have stayed at different unique hotels per city / country / region / continent
the amount of uniques needed for RA qualification is unknown but generally extended long stays at just 1 hotel do not qualify
- IHG-corporate showing keen interest in how much guests are spending $ at hotel's own operated F&B / Spa / transport / extra services / other venues
atacama40 has given us insights that extra spend at the hotel charged to the hotelfolio generates EQP but also flags the database as high valued spending guest
- one must have AMB to get considered for RA invitation by IHG as they seem to evaluate over a longer period the length of one's tenure / devotion / spend / undisclosed criteria at stayed IC-hotels

2024
Royal Ambassador 2024 (Re)Qualification - statistics

Thank you everyone who graciously shared their status and statistics. I took the liberty to compose an overview.
The common factor that is instantly recognisable is:
  • everyone has a valid AMB membership
  • everyone has spent a good amount in $
Shoven
IC: 69 N - 4 unique IC - $17400 - 2 unique country

AndyMick
IC: 96 N - 10 unique IC - 7 unique country - 164778 EQP

Ithink
IC: 78 N - 10 unique IC - 27000

Richelieu
~

ProjectSunburst
15 unique IC (USA) - $35000
Kimpton spend: $11000

Milleage Millionaire
IC: 100 N : 58 revenue & 42 award - 166514 EQP

Raynyan
~

Nicolas75
~

ILS2
$20000

HadesNL
IC: 41 N - 8 unique IC (2x USA, 1x UK, 3x EU, 1x Indonesia) 250458 EQP

Marlin1978
IC: 40 N - 9 unique IC (USA + EU) - $13000

HClee01
IC: 30 N - 6 unique IC - $8700
2x Kimpton / 1x Regent : 22 N - $7400

VAbeachgirl
IC: 88 N - 14 unique IC - 8 countries
2x Kimpton : 7 N
total $20000 (IC + Kimpton)

PremexecSNA
IHG : 85 N - 147000 EQP of which
90% revenue stay
85 % IC + Kimpton
10 unique IC
15 unique Kimpton

Darby1970
IC 100 N : 59 revenue of which
37 N : 11 unique IC (USA)& 4 (non-USA)
187682 EQP

Atacama40
IC + Kimpton : 40 N : UK, ME, Asia
Roomrate > 1000

EmeraldLady
11 unique IC : 4 continents
IHG: 87 N
$20000

Dmac1418
IC: 3 N - 2 unjque (IC Houston MC & IC San Diego)
6S Fiji $22000 (room: $10000 + spend $12000)

Smythmeister
~

Additional statistics can be found in the comments of LL
https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/12/03/...4-share-yours/
The only other place on the whole interweb that has an interest in Royal Ambassador.
============================

2023
Below our FT-members from the IHG forum with RA status
some of whom have graciously shared their statistics to shed some light
-----------------------
Mileage millionaire: 155359 EQP - IC nights 58 - total nights 108 - unique IC 15
Shoven : $16000 - IC nights 49 - Kimpton nights 8 - total nights 57 - unique IC 5 - unique Kimpton 2 - [unique countries UK/Thailand]
Stimpy: overall stats higher than Shoven
Nicholas75 : 230236 EQP - 93 EQN
Raynyan : 190000 EQP - IC/Kimpton nights 90 - unique IC/Kimpton 10
Vsevolod4 : $24000 - IC nights 67 - total nights 87
Vabeachgirl : $17500 - IC nights 75 - Kimpton nights 4 - total nights 79 - unique properties 13 [unique countries 7]
Hclee01: >$12600 - >156K EQP - 54 EQN - unique IC 3 - unique Kimpton 1 - unique Regent 2 [unique countries Singapore/Thailand/Taiwan/Japan]
Chinatrvl :
Ithink : 220.000 EQP - 47 EQN
Ninjalad : 150000 EQP - IC nights 34
Andymick : 145000 EQP - IC nights 100
Gentleman adventurer :
Marlin1978 :
Pseudo nim :
Hadesnl : 250000 EQP - Kimpton/IC nights 30 - 44 EQN - unique IC 3 - unique Kimpton 2 [unique countries UK/NL/FRA/Indonesia]
Itadakimasu : 120000 EQP - IC nights 12 - 51 EQN
Atacama40 : >25000 - IC nights 60 - unique IC 8 - unique Kimpton 1
Eein : corporate rates global & local
Raynyan's friends : RA extension because their account is Japanese registered
Tim O'Brien: after own friendly persuasion effort : $8,500 - IC nights 79 of which 49 at pres.suite - unique IC 4 [unique countries US/AUS/CAN]


----------------
The only other place on the internet that has an interest in RA (re)qualification statistics is at the comments at Loyaltylobby,
more 2023 RA datapoints can be found there:
https://loyaltylobby.com/2022/12/09/...re-your-stats/
https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/01/18/...re-your-stats/



==============================================

Update 2020 / 2021:
RA status was extended due to the global pandemic of covid19


================================================== =======

Update 2019: The RA status granted at the start of the calendar year 2017 and 2018 has been based on IC revenue. As from 2019 criteria again have become vague. RA is not achieved through IC spend only. Other, unknown elements are taken into account as well. (Fact: Some users with very high +25k IC spend were not renewed in 2019.)

Update December 2018: it looks like some accounts are proactively being renewed in December 2018, well ahead of the stated expiration of Jan 31, 2019. It is currently unknown what criteria were used, but previous years appeared to indicate around $10K++ in IC spend only.

As before, please Divide EQPs by 10 to get $$$ Spend
================================================== =====
December 2019 / January 2020 Link to RA Renewals & Upgrades
================================================== =====
================================================== =====

JANUARY 2019 RA RENEWAL STATS [put total IHG vs. IC if you can]
================================================== =====
NAME.... IHG total (paid)/IC/EQP, break out IC spend if you can
Pseudo Nim 73 IC nights, $14.6K IC spend ($17.7K total),
Shoven 70 (50) IC nights, $17.3K IC spend ($17.3K total),
Unterwegs 52 IC nights, approx $12K net IC spend. No other brands this year! No more mediocre HIs to make status.
Kaix 63 IC nights, $14.4K IC spend ($15.1K total)
Tim O'Brien 26 IC Paid Nights as at Dec 27, when notified of RA renewal, 140,171 EQP, IC Net Spend 14, 017.
Vsevolod4 IHG total 132, IHG total paid 101, IC nights 85, IC Qualified Spend $16.5K, total EQP 398,800, Kimpton nights: 3, RA Ambassador Kit renewed Dec 27, RA renewal (again) and Kimpton Inner Circle upgrade Jan 4.
kaka(mom) 34 nights 1 country (all IC), IC spend:23k USD
Lewis42 / 81 Total (unknown IC) / $16k IC / $2k Kimpton / 4 Continents
81 nights total
$18k Kimpton / IC (about $2k kimpton)
stays in 4 continents

been Ra for ~3-4 years

ID;Name;Confirm;Kit msg; Revenue ;Nights;Challenge?;Additional Info

40;stimpy;+;none; $9,000.00 ;50;?;RA since 2001 - exceptional renewal
38;turner32;-;none; $9,000.00 ;?;?;8/9 years as RA
49;hannes08;+;01/16/2019; $9,990.00 ;52;2000;renewal probably because of challenge
17;Lewis42;+;12/27/2018; $10,000.00 ;?;2000;renewal probably because of challenge
27;scienm;+;none; $10,032.00 ;32;?;8 years RA
25;hclee01;+;none; $10,142.16 ;37;?;current RA since 2014 - manual renewal
18;annihilation;-;none; $10,605.00 ;39;?;
51;crosskonaftw;?;none; $10,700.00 ;35;?;not yet RA
30;Land-of-Miles;+;none; $10,999.00 ;19;?;
16;Kimsbrand;-;none; $11,297.88 ;5;?;not RA yet. 13,532.92 USD total?
48;Urby38;+;12/27/2018; $11,300.00 ;47;?;Royal since 2012
42;SAWorldVoyager;?;12/21/2018; $11,391.52 ;?;?;
14;Cielito_;+;none; $11,511.00 ;62;no;77/62/8 with 12042 USD after batch
45;whimike;+;none; $11,700.00 ;?;?;RA for about 7 years
10;Unterwegs;+;12/27/2018; $12,000.00 ;52;yes;
44;serendipity1211;+;01/16/2019; $12,300.00 ;45;no;first-time RA
28;cazane;+;12/27/2018; $12,600.00 ;61;no;4 prepaid nights not posted until 27th 11890 -> 12600
11;VaBeachGirl;+;12/27/2018; $12,750.00 ;68;no;
50;lukah;?;none; $12,800.00 ;80;?;3 years RA
15;336;-;none; $12,900.00 ;16;2000;NOT completed challenge / Lots of adjusted stays
1;DonPedro;+;12/21/2018; $12,971.00 ;49;no;
47;SD2019;+;none; $13,000.00 ;35;no;stays erroneously adjusted or marked as overlapping
36;BRUSS;+;01/16/2019; $13,001.00 ;?;?;
13;Tim O'Brien;+;12/27/2018; $14,017.00 ;26;?; Kimpton;
33;marlin1978;?;12/27/2018; $14,182.00 ;46;no;
26;Kaix;?;12/27/2018; $14,400.00 ;63;?;
9;Pseudo Nim;+;12/27/2018; $14,600.00 ;73;?;
41;PMMMDL;?;?; $15,000.00 ;50;?;
23;nicolas75;?;12/27/2018; $15,000.00 ;81;?;
5;sharps1337;+;12/21/2018; $15,200.00 ;79;no;
3;Raynyan (friend2);?;12/21/2018; $15,500.00 ;69;no;
22;pantanal;+;12/27/2018; $16,000.00 ;?;?;
24;vsevolod4;+;12/27/2018; $16,319.00 ;84;no;
34;boekel;?;12/27/2018; $16,950.00 ;60;no;
21;ILS2;+;none; $17,000.00 ;40;?;
8;skaya (2x);+;12/27/2018; $17,000.00 ;?;?;
7;shoven;+;12/27/2018; $17,304.00 ;50;?;
51;EmeraldLady;+;12/27/2018; $18,000.00 ;47;?;
32;Mr. Chan;?;12/21/2018; $19,582.00 ;45;yes;completed challenge
46;kaka;+;12/21/2018; $20,001.00 ;34;no;
31;christenlabelle;?;none; $22,000.00 ;51;1k + Kimpton;
39;marcel.baden;?;12/27/2018; $22,000.00 ;77;?;
35;Flying Lawyer;?;12/27/2018; $22,135.00 ;70;?;
37;Roey007;?;none; $25,000.00 ;42;?;9 years RA - 9k adjustment: no kit message with 11k before
12;IThink;+;12/27/2018; $25,000.00 ;85;no;
19;HadesNL;+;12/27/2018; $28,273.90 ;52;?;
4;Raynyan (friend3);?;12/21/2018; $30,000.00 ;73;no;
29;btravers33;?;12/27/2018; $30,000.00 ;98;?;
2;Raynyan (friend1);?;12/21/2018; $32,000.00 ;75;no;
20;Raynyan;+;12/27/2018; ? ;70;?;~30 nights not counted somehow
6;samjnz;?;12/21/2018; ? ;?;2000;


04 JAN 2018 RA RENEWAL STATS [put total IHG vs. IC if you can]
================================================== =====
NAME.... IHG total (paid)/IC/EQP, break out IC spend if you can
Pseudo Nim 139 (116)/85/192K, of which $18K in IC
Boekel 85 (70)55/170K, of which $15K in IC
Tim O'Brien 29 IC Nights 2 Non IC IHG nights, 341,976 EQP
scubaccr 55 paid IC Nights , us$13,000++ / 4paid non-IC nights us$900++ (plus 8x IC reward nights, 20x non-IC reward nights) <== Sorry.. forgot to cop exact EQP values before 1/1/2018 acct zeroing
Cielito_ 81/77/5 - $7,353 F&B + $11,656 Room = $19,009 IC net spend - EQP 468,000 (First Time RA)
hclee01 50 IC us$13k++
Land-of-Miles ?? IC us$10.5k++
cazane 60 IC us$11.8k++
VaBeachGirl 54 IC us$13k++
PiffPaffPuff 60IC us$25k++
??????? 35 IC us$10.2k++ <== first time RA ref PiffPaffPuff colleague
Spitcool 40 IC us$15k++
Eltham 40 IC us$12k++
shoven 43 IC us$15k++ <== first time RA
skaya (partner) ?? IC us$10.2k++ <== renewed
darby1970 62 IC us$13k++
The Mileage Millionaire 102 paid IHG nights / 100 paid IC nights / 229k EQP / $22.7k++ IC spend
Orion_1 8 nights at IC, spent at 2 properties - USD 10,200 in total at ICs (honeymoon...)
HadesNL Elite qualifying points: 239,095, Qualifying nights: 39
Aussielori 50 IC us$8k++ 9.2k overall renewed on 16 jan

04 JAN 2018 RA LOSS STATS [put total IHG vs. IC if you can]
================================================== =====

tarek.h ?? IC us$9.1k++

sharps1337 IC us$9.9k++ (and 129 non-IC us$17k++ )

04 JAN 2017 RA RENEWAL STATS (Please include 2016 y/end EQP count)
================================================== =====
NAME.... IHG/IC/IC's EQP $$$$s
SCUBACCR 80/56/13 EQP=14,979 (Split $12864 + $2115)
HANNES08 76/46/10 EQP=11,200
OZ_CATALYST 75/63/8 EQP=14,700 (first Time RA) ($12414 at ICs)
TAREK.H 46/37/4 EQP=14.500 ($10,917 IC Spend)
TravelTheWorld66 147/33/11 EQP=27.972 ($8500 IC Spend)
HCLEE01 67/50/6 EQP=14880
ATACAMA40 82/56/10 EQP=??,???
VaBeachGirl 84/42/12 EQP=15,000
Land-of-Miles 87/73/10 EQP=40,000
SSH4POOH 132/99/28 EQP=50,000
???????? 75/35/8 EQP=??,??? (First Time RA, ref SSH4POOH)
iThink 82/36/11 EQP = 18,200
aussielori 75/45/5 EQP =15,100
1010101 50/48/4 = 12,500
MYSTERY7 63/45/? EQP=25,000 (First Time RA)
EmeraldLady 68/42/10 EQP=15,500
NKU 86/80/5 EQP=20,000
Petrus 110/40/3 EQP=20,000 ($8500 IC Spend)
JOHHENRIK 74/65/10 EQP=16,800
SyLance 76/76/4 EQP=17,500 (RA again after 3years missed)
Pseudo Nim 90/58/15 IC spend $9,500, $17K across chain (175K EQP)
Tim O'Brien 58 nights, EQP 474,576 , July 31, 2017 Year End, renewed to Dec 29, 2017
HadesNL 22/20/7 and us$20,000 ref two posts.
PROTEOME 53/36/? $25,000 (Plus further 30x IC Non-qual nights and 18 IC Award nights) <== nb Maybe/Maybe-Not the IC Non-qual $$'s count as about half EQPs spend, probably > 10k IC qual spend
Chinatrvl 88 nights (in all brands, but c. 75 in ICs), 300,000 EQP, ADR c. 115 USD as I stayed mostly on a locally negotiated rate (spend c. 10k USD)
Unterwegs 78(my count 86)/63/10/285.000 (according to email, I would have expected less. my spending estimate is 15-20K$)
Lewis42 77/39/10 EQP=16010
Whimike 88/35/12 EQP=14220

04 JAN 2017 RA Demotion to xxx Ambassador stats (if > 75/30/3)
==================================================
NAME IHG/IC/IC's EQP $$$$s

[Archived - no longer valid] New (Royal) Ambassador Criteria

A document was unintentionally available in the internet about changes to the (Royal) Ambassador Qualifying and Re-Qualifying criteria.
The document is available on

http://viewfromthewing.img.boardinga...Ambassador.pdf

Older discussion
There was an ongoing discussion about the criteria for some time. This thread is now closed.

update from Executive Liaison Sept, 2023,
spend at other IHG luxury brands does count for RA, and Renewal.
Brands weren't stated, but reasonable to assume Six Senses, Regent, and Kimpton.

















Print Wikipost

New RA qualifying criteria based on IC Revenue

Old Aug 25, 2018, 12:44 am
  #2491  
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Originally Posted by Atacama40
No never a problem at the O2 ... other problems, some of which you have mentioned before which I agree, but mini bar FOC refresh .... never.
I have had a repeated problem at the O2, the lack of proactive minibar refresh on some 20+ stays last year was one of the many reasons I choose not to stay there again as life is too short to spend a chunk of my precious free time after work every day arguing with hotel staff about the shortcomings of their property and service just to get standard things done which I should never even have to ask for.

Whilst I have come to accept that the IC O2 is simply a poor property, the spread of the minibar refresh issue to every other property I have stayed at this year to date is much more of a concern.
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Old Aug 25, 2018, 12:46 am
  #2492  
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Originally Posted by Land-of-Miles
I have had a repeated problem at the O2, the lack of proactive minibar refresh on some 20+ stays last year was one of the many reasons I choose not to stay there again as life is too short to spend a chunk of my precious free time after work every day arguing with hotel staff about the shortcomings of their property and service just to get standard things done which I should never even have to ask for.

Whilst I have come to accept that the IC O2 is simply a poor property, the spread of the minibar refresh issue to every other property I have stayed at this year to date is much more of a concern.
I've literally NEVER had a minibar refill problem, so I'm going to say that's probably more your experience than a generalisation. And I'm pretty ... liberal with usage. :P
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Old Aug 25, 2018, 12:50 am
  #2493  
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Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim
I've literally NEVER had a minibar refill problem, so I'm going to say that's probably more your experience than a generalisation. And I'm pretty ... liberal with usage. :P
It would seem unusual to me for an issue I have found on almost every stay to impact only me specifically at the O2. I obviously however can only speak for my own experience.

The issues elsewhere I might put down to normal screw ups were they not so pervasive this year. I do tend to use the minibar a bit but I would say moderately and very rarely to excess.
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Old Aug 25, 2018, 2:43 am
  #2494  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by Land-of-Miles
It would seem unusual to me for an issue I have found on almost every stay to impact only me specifically at the O2. I obviously however can only speak for my own experience.

The issues elsewhere I might put down to normal screw ups were they not so pervasive this year. I do tend to use the minibar a bit but I would say moderately and very rarely to excess.
Might be were things are going wrong. Try stepping up to excess LOM, get the F&B trolley folks running .... it should develop a Pavlovian response eventually. And if excess is hard to hit then stuff them in your bag and feign excess!

But of course 'when the FUN stops, stop' :-)
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Old Aug 26, 2018, 3:14 am
  #2495  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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I can only think of one occasion where I have not had the mini bar restocked fully and that was in Koh Samui and it was only a couple of beers otherwise no issues but that could be because I have stayed only in Asia so far this year where staffing costs are cheaper and they always seem to have plenty of people to get things done.
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Old Oct 5, 2018, 8:33 pm
  #2496  
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quick question re RA.
my parents stays at IC Osaka a couple of times per year at the residences for ard a week each - my quick calc its ard $10k each time they stay there (+ or - since theres a few BOGO that we use because of this). im fairly sure they spent >20K last year and should exceed 20K before xmas spend this year.
HOWEVER, almost all would be spent on 1 IC property.
There'd be a couple of nights spent on other ICs around the world but it would be spent w points.

now, should they get RA (my mom now isnt one, but Amb for a few years now), should i email david or who not, or it simply would not happen?

With the old old rules (N nights across 3 hotels) i wouldnt bother since I know they clearly dont qualify - however I've asked Osaka once about that but didnt get much enthusiastic response then. I wonder if it's still worth trying...

Last edited by kaka; Oct 5, 2018 at 9:13 pm Reason: miss calc by 10x! now corrected
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Old Oct 5, 2018, 9:07 pm
  #2497  
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Originally Posted by kaka
quick question re RA.
my parents stays at IC Osaka a couple of times per year at the residences for ard a week each - my quick calc its ard $1000 each time they stay there (+ or - since theres a few BOGO that we use because of this). im fairly sure they spent >2K last year and should exceed 2K before xmas spend this year.
HOWEVER, almost all would be spent on 1 IC property.
There'd be a couple of nights spent on other ICs around the world but it would be spent w points.

now, should they get RA (my mom now isnt one, but Amb for a few years now), should i email david or who not, or it simply would not happen?

With the old old rules (N nights across 3 hotels) i wouldnt bother since I know they clearly dont qualify - however I've asked Osaka once about that but didnt get much enthusiastic response then. I wonder if it's still worth trying...
$2K or $20K?
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Old Oct 5, 2018, 9:12 pm
  #2498  
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Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim


$2K or $20K?
20, sorry!
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Old Oct 6, 2018, 4:04 am
  #2499  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Originally Posted by kaka
quick question re RA.
my parents stays at IC Osaka a couple of times per year at the residences for ard a week each - my quick calc its ard $10k each time they stay there (+ or - since theres a few BOGO that we use because of this). im fairly sure they spent >20K last year and should exceed 20K before xmas spend this year.
HOWEVER, almost all would be spent on 1 IC property.
There'd be a couple of nights spent on other ICs around the world but it would be spent w points.

now, should they get RA (my mom now isnt one, but Amb for a few years now), should i email david or who not, or it simply would not happen?

With the old old rules (N nights across 3 hotels) i wouldnt bother since I know they clearly dont qualify - however I've asked Osaka once about that but didnt get much enthusiastic response then. I wonder if it's still worth trying...
Lowest reported was Orion_1 , a first time unexpected (by him) RA for 2018 calendar year. an 8night IC Honemoon.......... 8nights, 2 diff IC's , spend usd10200++ (see wiki) .... So 3x IC's not required last time around
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Old Oct 6, 2018, 4:24 am
  #2500  
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Originally Posted by kaka
20, sorry!
Do one or two ICs somewhere else just to check them off, and aside from that, I think it would work!
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Old Oct 6, 2018, 11:44 pm
  #2501  
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Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim

Do one or two ICs somewhere else just to check them off, and aside from that, I think it would work!
my gosh. getting them out of osaka is hard enough

btw, Do they only assign in December and January, and not in the middle of the year

Last edited by kaka; Oct 6, 2018 at 11:59 pm
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Old Oct 7, 2018, 1:16 pm
  #2502  
 
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Originally Posted by kaka
20, sorry!
20k spend should be an easy RA on spend
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Old Oct 7, 2018, 5:52 pm
  #2503  
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Originally Posted by pantanal
20k spend should be an easy RA on spend
do i hv to wait till jan to find out
or they have sweeps during the year?
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Old Oct 7, 2018, 7:21 pm
  #2504  
 
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Originally Posted by kaka

my gosh. getting them out of osaka is hard enough

btw, Do they only assign in December and January, and not in the middle of the year
4 ICs in the greater Tokyo / Yokohama area with two quite centrally in Tokyo. IC Strings or IC ANA Club should be fine even for someone used to the very good IC Osaka and the Shinkansen ride takes less than 3 hrs if combined with Osaka.
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Old Oct 7, 2018, 8:01 pm
  #2505  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: world
Programs: all
Posts: 1,422
Originally Posted by kaka

do i hv to wait till jan to find out
or they have sweeps during the year?
i dont know what they do for new RA. I have been an RA for years and last year the renewal was in january so not sure what they are doing now
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