Is this an illegal practice by an airline?
Oct 14, 2020, 2:15 pm
#16
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In fact, both EC 261/2004 (EU law) and 14 CFR (IS law) apply to the ticket. The former because it is an EU carrier operating to the EU. The latter because it is a ticket originating in the US. Moreover, for almost all carriers, there is a contract provision providing for a refund when a flight is cancelled by the carrier. In the case of a cancellation by the passenger, the terms of the contract (generally the COC and fare rules as well as any special waivers such as for the pandemic) will apply.
None of that helps you because the fact remains that you yourself acknowledge that the flight is not yet cancelled. Thus, a refund is not yet due. Not under EU law, not under US law and not under the contract itself.
None of that helps you because the fact remains that you yourself acknowledge that the flight is not yet cancelled. Thus, a refund is not yet due. Not under EU law, not under US law and not under the contract itself.
Oct 14, 2020, 2:41 pm
#18
Join Date: Jan 2014
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I'm with most of the others who are dubious about the chance of this in my own countries courts, but your chance in America may be better. I'd go into more detail but your inclination to accuse anyone who doesn't immediately agree with you of being an apologist for the airlines leaves me disinclined; what I will add is that I do intend to pursue an airline for a similar practice, and feel the practice is unethical, I just don't think it's a breach of contract.
Oct 14, 2020, 2:44 pm
#19
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Of course airlines are trying to keep the bookings and the money in their coffers but not in an attempt to defraud. They’re allowing free changes or a credit if someone wants to not take the flight. I’ve done both the credit and waited to get my refund on various flights in the past 7+ months.
It isn’t fraud but I do agree it isn’t the best practice in the eye of the consumer. It’s maintaining operations as they don’t know what next month will bring. Whether that is more cancellations or more traveling options.
As for the attorneys you have contacted. Remember they make money by getting you in the door. Once you sign on they start billing towards a claim. That old be a settlement to make it go away, a lawsuit or a class action. The more they bill the more they get as I doubt you would want to pay upfront for such a case.
It isn’t fraud but I do agree it isn’t the best practice in the eye of the consumer. It’s maintaining operations as they don’t know what next month will bring. Whether that is more cancellations or more traveling options.
As for the attorneys you have contacted. Remember they make money by getting you in the door. Once you sign on they start billing towards a claim. That old be a settlement to make it go away, a lawsuit or a class action. The more they bill the more they get as I doubt you would want to pay upfront for such a case.
Oct 14, 2020, 2:54 pm
#20
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The only tiny chance of a successful lawsuit is if the airline refuses to refund the money after cancelling the flight.
Otherwise it's clearly legitimate business practice to sell plane tickets in advance and to only cancel flights when it becomes 100% obvious that the vast majority of their passengers will not be allowed to travel. In fact, it would be the failure to cancel flights and tell people "what did you not understand about non-refundable" that would be considered "sharp business practice".
Otherwise it's clearly legitimate business practice to sell plane tickets in advance and to only cancel flights when it becomes 100% obvious that the vast majority of their passengers will not be allowed to travel. In fact, it would be the failure to cancel flights and tell people "what did you not understand about non-refundable" that would be considered "sharp business practice".
Oct 14, 2020, 3:50 pm
#22
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The airline is European, the ticket however is a one-way US to Europe business ticket (there was no EU to US leg). Therefore, according to what you've stated, EC261 does not apply (in my case anyway, but this isn't about me, it's about systemic collusion to rob passengers of their right to a full refund).
Respectfully, your argument about freight makes no sense... If the flight may or may not be going because of freight, why not sell an open seat and get the incremental revenue? Makes no sense, other than that of being deceitful.
Moreover, all daily flights from this airline spanning a month or more have been "shadow canceled" in the way I have described... This alludes to a systemic practice of deception, not one affecting a single flight or small group of flights.
>> I personally don't see what the customer has lost here. You really want to start a class action suit?
Really? You don't see that conning people into taking a voucher so that the airline can keep the money - rather than being straight and offering the refund - is a material loss for the passengers? People need money in this time, not a voucher for some travel they might never use, but were conned into thinking was their only way to not lose 100% of their fare.
>> If you saw someone drowning, would you take pleasure in pushing them further underwater?
So you truly are an apologist for the airline. Just because an airline is struggling does not excuse them from coning people out of their entitlement to a full refund.
Respectfully, your argument about freight makes no sense... If the flight may or may not be going because of freight, why not sell an open seat and get the incremental revenue? Makes no sense, other than that of being deceitful.
Moreover, all daily flights from this airline spanning a month or more have been "shadow canceled" in the way I have described... This alludes to a systemic practice of deception, not one affecting a single flight or small group of flights.
>> I personally don't see what the customer has lost here. You really want to start a class action suit?
Really? You don't see that conning people into taking a voucher so that the airline can keep the money - rather than being straight and offering the refund - is a material loss for the passengers? People need money in this time, not a voucher for some travel they might never use, but were conned into thinking was their only way to not lose 100% of their fare.
>> If you saw someone drowning, would you take pleasure in pushing them further underwater?
So you truly are an apologist for the airline. Just because an airline is struggling does not excuse them from coning people out of their entitlement to a full refund.
I don't see it as conning people into taking a voucher/conning them out of a refund. This 'shadow cancelling' as you called it is happening because the airlines (and many passengers) are hoping that a change in circumstances will allow the flight to go ahead as planned. I would be equally pissed off if an airline cancelled my flight 2 weeks in advance and then 1 week later advised that flights are going ahead and I now have to re-book at an elevated last minute rate.
Also for people who are not last minute (like me) they are given an option to change or get a voucher (even though the flight might still go ahead) and can get this at any point before departure so there is nothing to stop them waiting until a few days before to see if they cancel the flight and get a full refund. I personally see this as being quite a nice option for the customer. At no point is the passenger being forced or encouraged to take the voucher.
IF the airline was saying 2-3 weeks in advance that you may make a change/get a voucher but this offer will only last for 72 hours (or something similar) then yes I would consider this as deceptive and pushing customers into taking that option so the airline can keep the cash.
Last edited by pogonation; Oct 14, 2020 at 5:44 pm
Oct 14, 2020, 7:33 pm
#23
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You shouldn't assume that the people who explain how things work actually endorse the practices they describe. Often times, they are just presenting the facts.
Oct 15, 2020, 10:09 pm
#24
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I don't know why you're being shy about naming the airline.
It is Norwegian Airlines.
They did the same to me back in March. Simply wait it out, don't accept the voucher for now and don't touch your ticket. Once Norwegian cancels the flight you will get the refund.
It is Norwegian Airlines.
They did the same to me back in March. Simply wait it out, don't accept the voucher for now and don't touch your ticket. Once Norwegian cancels the flight you will get the refund.
Oct 16, 2020, 1:39 am
#26
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I am inclined to say no on this.
At the minimum, what you have mentioned suggest a conspiracy or a scheme to defraud consumers. However, a mere allegation is not enough, which must have something to back it up to make it plausible. So I would side with the airline given that it is a wild goose chase.
Good luck. A court of law should have this thrown out in no time.
In the U.S., airlines are sort of immune from lawsuits because of ADA. In Europe, not every country allows class action.
At the minimum, what you have mentioned suggest a conspiracy or a scheme to defraud consumers. However, a mere allegation is not enough, which must have something to back it up to make it plausible. So I would side with the airline given that it is a wild goose chase.
Good luck. A court of law should have this thrown out in no time.
In the U.S., airlines are sort of immune from lawsuits because of ADA. In Europe, not every country allows class action.
Oct 18, 2020, 8:53 pm
#27
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You don't just get to seek discovery based you on your theory that airlines know flights are going to be canceled, but sell tickets on them anyway. That is what is referred to in legal terms as a "fishing expedition."
The OP says they emailed 5 "travel lawyers." While I know of several reputable, highly regarded consumer class action attorneys, I have never heard of one that refers to themselves as a "travel lawyer."
I also have never heard of a reputable lawyer who would email someone based on such little facts and suggest they have a case. As much as people mock lawyers, we are actually a highly regulated profession, and most lawyers would not put something in writing beyond "Interesting- please schedule a consultation."
The OP says they emailed 5 "travel lawyers." While I know of several reputable, highly regarded consumer class action attorneys, I have never heard of one that refers to themselves as a "travel lawyer."
I also have never heard of a reputable lawyer who would email someone based on such little facts and suggest they have a case. As much as people mock lawyers, we are actually a highly regulated profession, and most lawyers would not put something in writing beyond "Interesting- please schedule a consultation."
Nov 10, 2020, 5:55 am
#28
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However, if the airline knew in advance that the flight would not be flying (they stopped displaying that flight and taking new reservations), then they have essentially "robbed" some passengers on that flight of their option to get a full refund, since those passengers were "scammed" into taking the voucher or changing the flight. I feel that many of those passengers would have otherwise taken the refund, had they known it would be an option. That can't be legal, if you can prove the airline knew it would be canceled but did not present the option to passengers. Some will just have been scared to fly and will have taken the voucher, even though they might not have the intention to fly at any point - but the airline then gets to keep the funds.
Gotta be a class action suit there.
Edit: Oh and for the record, I have not changed the flight... I will make them refund me 100% if they don't fly. However, I still think this is really unfair to people who didn't know about this dynamic (which I'm sure is the majority, who just jumped at the change/voucher).
Gotta be a class action suit there.
Edit: Oh and for the record, I have not changed the flight... I will make them refund me 100% if they don't fly. However, I still think this is really unfair to people who didn't know about this dynamic (which I'm sure is the majority, who just jumped at the change/voucher).
Nov 10, 2020, 2:25 pm
#29
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That may be, but I had the exact same experience this month with a different European based airline. One that speaks my language 
The flight disappeared but was not "cancelled" and my booking sure looked like I had my seat. I called the airline and they refunded my ticket with no argument, Took less than a week for my credit card to show the credit.
The flight disappeared but was not "cancelled" and my booking sure looked like I had my seat. I called the airline and they refunded my ticket with no argument, Took less than a week for my credit card to show the credit.
Last edited by hunter747; Nov 11, 2020 at 12:57 pm
Nov 11, 2020, 12:41 am
#30
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Different situation
I experienced the contrary of your situation. I received an email from my home airline telling me that my flight was cancelled and they had rebooked me for the next day. However when I checked the airline website, the flight was still available for purchase. I phoned the company and was told that the flight was still scheduled and they couldn't see that it was cancelled. Several days later, the flight disappeared from the website. I think this could be an illegal practice since they can collect airfare knowing that the flight would not be operated. Also they are very slow to reimburse cancelled tickets, it takes 2 to 6 months...