desi

On Jan 6th, you posted that you will be arriving shortly in India.

By that time, announced rules were pretty clear. Even on Jan 5th, on this thread, link to actual circular and essence of that circular was already posted/discussed. OCI will not be allowed to exchange notes was as clear as it can get by Indian standards.

So why bother visiting RBI? or even spend an hour filling up form knowing fully that one is clearly not eligible?
Hope is eternal and one is of course entitled to engage in futile activity if one chooses but then why not label resulting frustration as misplaced hope rather than pickpockting.

One way to look is that maximum we are going to loose is Rs 25000 (about 360 USD). It is bad but certainly not as bad as babus not allowing only son to cremate his father just because he visited 2 months earlier on multiple-enrty 10 year visa durng father's bypass surgery.

GUWonder

Netas, not babus. Like with the demonetization, the above-mentioned (since aborted) restriction on Indian multiple entry visas was decided by an elected official.

Those questions assume that OCIs should know full well that they don't have all the advertised benefits of being an OCI. Rather unfair to expect fair-dealing people to expect the government courting them to do so on the basis of false advertising. The elected government has repeatedly misled the public on the demonetization matter; and with it now the government has also misled OCIs -- or at least shown OCIs -- that OCIs are just a cow to milk who haven't been served even on what successive governments have advertised to OCIs when seeking out OCIs. What claim? The claim about parity in economic spheres except in the limited carve outs already publicly represented for years and years.

The government's economic parity claim for OCIs has shown itself a joke when OCIs are treated worse than even NRIs.

Between the demonetization debacle and the relative inconsideration for OCIs and even NRIs in this matter, domestic and foreign investors need to be extra cautious when considering increasing or even maintaining investment exposure to India.

dvpatel

Technically speaking, a non-Indian is not allowed to bring Rs out of the country. So, we all (yes I have 10,500 in 1000 and 500 notes) illegally brought out Rs. I remember looking up that rule when the notes were rescinded.


So, that said, harping on how OCI is not exactly the same as NRI is unfounded. Yes. I am pissed that I lost 10,500. Wife is flying out tomorrow and I was told earlier that she would be able to get them swapped at AMD RBI branch. I guess not per the Jan 4 bulletin.


Ironically, the move was to wipe out black money and this money was the money grand parents and uncles and aunts gave to my kids on our way back in Jan 2012 when we had a family trip to India. I suppose, since the Rs were illegally brought out of the country, they do infact qualify as black money.

desi

Sorry GUWonder. First of all, you have no proof of the above. Secondly. common sense dictate that such details are formulated by career admin staff in almost ALL democracies not just India. (even UK and US).


There is no need to assume. RBI had posted its circular on its website, That page was linked on this thread and it was well discussed here. There is a VERY SPECIFIC FAQ about OCI eligibility and extremely clear answer about it. So person HAD ALL THE INFORMATION. It was his choice to still engage in futile exercise. No point in calling that decision as pickpocketing.

Agree with you that not honoring OCI-NRI parity pledge (which BTW still exist on Home Ministry website even today), is a leadership fault because even if original decision was made by babus at RBI, Modi Govt has let it stand.

Agree. Learned my bitter lessons hard way in early 90s. Easier to gain investment exposure through US or UK based ETF.

Coming back to the topic, OCI may still get opportunity given there are 5 more months for NRI. But uncertainity makes it difficult to plan anything.

just an OCI

It is quite clear that RBI demonetisation effort is to stop counterfeiting of the current banknotes allegedly used for funding terrorism, as well as a crack down on black money in the country.

If this is true, RBI should clearly explain why Persons of Indian origin (PIOs) and Overseas Citizens of India (OCIs) are excluded to deposit scrapped Rs 500 & Rs 1,000 notes? Why only NRI's are allowed to deposit?

Are they linking OCIs to counterfeiting or funding terrorism or even black money.

The Min.of External Affairs should take the responsibility to explain why
the OCIs and Foreigners are not allowed to exchange the scrapped money, when it is legal to take out of the country and also return to India with Rupees 25,000/-

desi

Sir,

Your information seem to contradict facts. Care to post the link to an official source that you looked up??

Do you really think that so many posters here are just posting without having done due delligence of double-checking actual official rules?

Sorry about your loss of 10,500. (Most of us here on this thread are in hole for much bigger amount)

OCI-NRI parity on economic matters is something claimed by GOI (and even displayed in BOLD on its website - link was posted upthread)

desi

Welcome to FT.

RBI webpage has indicated where to lodge your complaint. Also GUWonder had and excellent suggestion of writing to PMO office. This thread is mostly for sharing information (and venting ) but unlikely to force any changes.

dvpatel

I knew that was coming. I was in a rush this morning and my work laptop and its ancient IE browser does NOT let me edit the posts. Here goes.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/22679752.cms


https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-ille...e-out-of-India


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37938925


Apparently, even NRIs cannot legally take the money out. We all do. I get that. There is no enforcement and there are no signs per say to let us all know that as well. But the fact is, it is illegal to carry out Rupees out of India. Consequently, I had read it was illegal to bring Rupees into India as well.


Now. I am not debating whether the OCI holder gets the same parity as NRIs or not but I have read dozens of articles citing it was illegal to carry the notes to begin with. The "official" India sites are very hard to navigate however.


Can you please post an official rule that is recent that allows one to carry a certain amount of Rupees legally? I have not found that either.

GUWonder

The visa restriction was decided by the netas. The then Finance-moved-to-Home Minister decided it should be done. And the then PM was in on it too. Do you really think any of them will deny it? I knew about that restriction coming up even before it got formally decided and then announced publicly. The then top of the IAS at Home wouldn't stick his neck out to do this without the netas saying that restriction is what they wanted. The revised approach to even already issued visas also was a sign of the government's ability to engage in unfair dealing, but that didn't hit as many people as this demonetization scam.

About the false OCI advertising. Many an OCI has behaved as if they are an NRI for just about most purposes in India, especially most economic participation purposes. And many an OCI has been an NRI for longer than there has been an OCI. NRI treatment for former NRIs had been so common in India that when the government came up with PIO and then OCI it was done to continue the NRI approach for former NRIs who had taken up citizenship outside India and their descendants (and done for economic/financial purposes); in essence it was designed to formalize what was already commonplace for former NRIs. Part of that design was to advertise an extensive parity in economic/financial dealings. So much for fair dealing when selling the scheme. When the government decided to do this OCI thing, the first thing that came to my mind is that the scheme is a bit of a scam as it's really not "citizenship"; and when they started showing an OCI "passport" style book, that was even more amusing as India didn't want people being able to travel internationally with those documents.

While I know the power of IAS (babu) types in many a situation in India, the Indian demonetization and visa stuff was a display of the power of netas with the babus falling in line. There is plenty of evidence of that, including first hand accounts.

desi

None of the three links posted by you are official.
Last one doesnt even mention anything about the subject.
Second one is from Quora. Need I say anything more?
First one is more than 3.5 years old.

Just google "RBI rupees out of country"

First link is from NRICafe. Seem to have addressed your queries. (including how the limit has been changed and how various websites are outdated)
http://nricafe.com/guide-carrying-cu...dian-airports/

Second, third and fourth links are ones you included in your post.

Few below are from late 2014 when the limit must have changed.

http://indianexpress.com/article/bus...5k-abroad-rbi/

http://www.livemint.com/Money/xlZJZ0...00-abroad.html





The extract of circular by India Government is given under:


Attention is invited to Regulation (3) of Foreign Exchange Management (Export and Import of Currency) (Amendment) Regulations, 2009, notified vide Notification No.FEMA.258/2013-RB dated February 15, 2013 and A.P. (DIR Series) Circular No. No. 39 dated September 6, 2013 in terms of which, any person resident in India may take outside India or having gone out of India on a temporary visit, may bring into India (other than to and from Nepal and Bhutan) currency notes of Government of India and Reserve Bank of India notes up to an amount not exceeding Rs.10,000.


The RBI vide A.P. (DIR series) No. 146, dated 19.06.2014 has now provided that aforementioned limit has been enhanced to Rs 25000/- per person from Rs 10,000/- per person. Thus, any person resident in India:



i) may take outside India (other than to Nepal and Bhutan) currency notes of Government of India and Reserve Bank of India notes up to an amount not exceeding Rs.25,000 (Rupees twenty five thousand only); and

ii) who had gone out of India on a temporary visit, may bring into India at the time of his return from any place outside India (other than from Nepal and Bhutan), currency notes of Government of India and Reserve Bank of India notes up to an amount not exceeding Rs.25,000 (Rupees twenty five thousand only).

Further, vide said A.P. (DIR series) No. 146 dated 19.06.2014, it is also provided that any person resident outside India, not being a citizen of Pakistan and Bangladesh and also not a traveller coming from and going to Pakistan and Bangladesh, and visiting India:

i) may take outside India currency notes of Government of India and Reserve Bank of India notes up to an amount not exceeding Rs. 25,000 (Rupees twenty five thousand only) while exiting only through an airport.

ii) may bring into India currency notes of Government of India and Reserve Bank of India notes up to an amount not exceeding Rs. 25,000 (Rupees twenty five thousand only) while entering only through an airport.

desi

@dvpatel,

Here you go. Hope RBI circular on its own website is considered more official than Quora.

https://www.rbi.org.in/scripts/Notif...Id=8949&Mode=0

A letter to PMO office (Gujarati or Hindi or English) by lot of OCI/NRI might help, just might. OCI situation is pure unfair. But with only 5 branches of RBI make the case unnecessarily inconvenient even for NRI.

It seems there were 1200 OCI at PBD meeting and no one spoke up?

desi

Just heard this.

75 year old NRI (who can barely walk and cant stand for more than few minutes) spends 3 monhts in India with DD/SIL and 9 months with DS in USA.

During Nov/Dec, based on his written authorization, cash in India were deposited in local bank branch. Now when he goes back with his 18k remianing with him, he has to actually go to an RBI branch 300 miles away himself!! Letter of authorization along with custom declaration form and passport copies are not enough. 75 year old handicapped person himself has to make the trip. Who decided this specific detail? Some political leader or life-long bureaucrate?

dvpatel

Thank you. I tried very hard to find an official RBI declaration. I was unable to find this one.


That said, this still talks about resident and non-resident (Indians I assume). We're not Indians once we got our respective countries' passports. OCI came later. They (netas and babus) will win on this one. At the least, this is likely why NRIs only can still turn in the old notes and OCI/PIOs are out of luck till a neta or a babu rolls out a yet another rule change.


As to a letter. F it. I do not have time to mess around with these Indian beaurocrats for petty stuff. I gave up on that country on my last trip and pulled out EVERYTHING. I have no ties what so ever to India financially/economically. Everyone in that country is either sitting at the desk for the bribe (in case of govt. office) or to fleece foreigners.


I got tired of watching my 72 year old dad go from branch to brach to turn in my KYCs and told him to close out everything. The final papers/closings were completed in Jan 2016 on my last trip.


Good riddance.


I love the country but I am saddened at the rate at which even common people are out there to get your $$ without providing you commensurate service/benefit.

Billy001

Those who travel 'out' and 'in' out of countries (India and wherever one travels to) should know all rules around what one can carry in terms of cash, gifts, items purchased (for customs) etc. some people indicating 50k INR is really over the limit.

To me it's straightforward
- If someone carried more than what they are supposed to, they did it wrong way and it's there loss (just eat up the loss for making a bad decision)
- If someone carried within limits and maybe kept accumulating it overseas through multiple trips -> that's bad financial decision (hoarding cash which doesn't give any bank interest is kind of not good investment decision. I understand keeping cash for emergencies etc. however a 'lot of cash' that too by NRIs doesn't make sense. Especially interest rates in India are good than some other countries, keeping cash makes no sense. Am sure there will be exceptions like one forgets to bring back cash or return Indian currency before leaving in hurry, which might have accumulated more than the limit).

- assuming most OCIs (foreign citizens) or NRIs being out of country are well off (I.e residing in developed countries with exchange rates of 1:~50) the loss is ~500 USD and not sure how many will shed tears for such small amount. Am sure it's hard earned money however either you spend valuable time and money to visit RBI, raise grievances/complaints to get it back or just treat it a loss or bad luck. It doesn't happen frequently in ones life and if it happens number of times then really one is not lucky enough).

Financial risk exists everywhere. Risk is never eliminated the probability is what changes. There is a Risk of keeping cash at home being stolen during burglary. Vice verse even banks can go bankrupt and hypothetically one may not recover ones deposits (yes banks might be insured however even countries economy can go downhill so insurance can become useless - again the risk is miniscule due to probability of everything going downhill for a country is low). Same with currency exchange, do you exchange now or wait for good rates which might take years.

Risk is everywhere, deal with it as your own decision to take that risk, at least partially if not fully.

desi

Billy,

None of the posters here are upset about financial loss. This being FT, venting is norm as much as info exchange. Even credit risk traders who understood and took on credit risk as living, vented a lot when LEH went belly up. Unnecessary avoidable idiocity upsets any common lay man. Tendency to rationalize utter failures of political leaders or career bureaucrats as "risk of life" might be one of the contributory factors for the sorry state country finds itself in.

Keeping enough money handy for immediate use was both legal and prudent. (Everything shutdown because of death of politician or some kind of riots or 4 day long bank holiday was not unheard of) One certainly cant classify that legal prudent course of action as Financial Risk taking.


That's the crux. Some on this thread are venting exactly that - why are these the only choices? Expecting a democratic government holding its end of highly advertised (OCI parity with NRI) bargain should be the norm, not labelled as financial risk.