Avios booking cancelled without notification - what can I expect Iberia to do?
Jul 26, 2019, 4:26 am
#16
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,212
NewEXP, I would argue you have a contractual case here, since Avios changed hands, so it is only reasonable that Iberia reimburse the damages incurred as a result of its failure to deliver
Jul 26, 2019, 5:17 am
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 58
But couldn’t they just say that, because the credit card charge for the tax didn’t process, I never paid in full?
Jul 26, 2019, 5:39 am
#18
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,212
I thought about that and believe you demonstrated legal capacity, ie. by providing IB with a valid credit card, you were legally capable of making the contract. It appears that IB failed to process the payment in a timely manner which led to the auto-cancellation of your booking but that was their failure, not yours. The fact that they collected the Avios component strengthens your case.
Jul 26, 2019, 5:46 am
#19
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: BAEC, Ib+, Accor, HHonors
Posts: 609
Essentially, you reservations/booking need a little bit of extra TLC.
I'm not defending IbPlus - but I can't be on your side either. You are an experienced flyer, you have been a FT member since 2003... and you really didn't know that a confirmed booking is not valid for travel??? The key issue is actually the e-ticket??? And without an e-ticket you can't travel???
Of course Ib Plus should have called you whenever they realised that the payment did not go through. Maybe they tried... but the phone number on your profile/booking wasn't updated? Or perhaps you never know what message IB got when they tried to collect payment (fraud?). It's also important to be aware of the current GRDP in the EU, and I'm not sure how easy it is for IB to call you, unless you have specifically ticked the box that they can contact you. This is just, of course, all hypothetical. We will never know this.
Btw, it's also your responsibility (obligation?) to input the correct credit card data (or any personal information). If you don't, it's very hard to blame someone else for not taking payment.
In fact, you can also fin this nice paragraph in Iberia's T&C:
By using this site you also agree to exonerate Iberia from any liability with regard to any damage you could suffer as a result of errors, defects or omissions in the information provided, so long as it is due to a problem outside of Iberia’s control.
I'm not sure Avios is a means of payment. As of today, miles and points are not considered a traditional currency or e-currency and cannot be exchanged for a traditional currency.
I'm not defending IbPlus - but I can't be on your side either. You are an experienced flyer, you have been a FT member since 2003... and you really didn't know that a confirmed booking is not valid for travel??? The key issue is actually the e-ticket??? And without an e-ticket you can't travel???
Of course Ib Plus should have called you whenever they realised that the payment did not go through. Maybe they tried... but the phone number on your profile/booking wasn't updated? Or perhaps you never know what message IB got when they tried to collect payment (fraud?). It's also important to be aware of the current GRDP in the EU, and I'm not sure how easy it is for IB to call you, unless you have specifically ticked the box that they can contact you. This is just, of course, all hypothetical. We will never know this.
Btw, it's also your responsibility (obligation?) to input the correct credit card data (or any personal information). If you don't, it's very hard to blame someone else for not taking payment.
In fact, you can also fin this nice paragraph in Iberia's T&C:
By using this site you also agree to exonerate Iberia from any liability with regard to any damage you could suffer as a result of errors, defects or omissions in the information provided, so long as it is due to a problem outside of Iberia’s control.
I'm not sure Avios is a means of payment. As of today, miles and points are not considered a traditional currency or e-currency and cannot be exchanged for a traditional currency.
Jul 26, 2019, 5:49 am
#20
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: BAEC, Ib+, Accor, HHonors
Posts: 609
I thought about that and believe you demonstrated legal capacity, ie. by providing IB with a valid credit card, you were legally capable of making the contract. It appears that IB failed to process the payment in a timely manner which led to the auto-cancellation of your booking but that was their failure, not yours. The fact that they collected the Avios component strengthens your case.
I may have figured out what happened with the supposed declined charge for the $40.40 in taxes. I looked in my Iberia account's payment information, and I have two credit cards on file with them. They only list the last four digits, and I checked the cards in my wallet to make sure I still have two cards that end in those digits. I do, but I noticed also that one of them has a different expiration date from what was shown on Iberia's site, and not just by a different year (which is what you normally get when they send you a replacement card after one expires) - they were different months as well. It appears that one of the cards (the top one on Iberia's list) was a cancelled card that happened to have the same last four digits as the card I currently put most of my purchases on. So my guess (just a guess) is that I saw those four digits in the auto-populated payment field when I made the reservation, checked them against the card currently in my wallet, and hit purchase. Then, when Iberia went to charge the card, it was declined because the account they have on file for me was closed months prior.
Jul 26, 2019, 6:05 am
#21
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 58
Yeah, my best guess as to what happened is that I used a credit card number I had on file with Iberia that I thought was my current credit card but was actually an older card I cancelled that happened to have the same last four digits. If that’s what happened, then I (unknowingly) did not provide them with a valid credit card for the non-Avios part of the payment. That’s why I’m now thinking I would not be able to win in court. However, I still think it was extremely poor form on their part to charge me the Avios (making me think the transaction was fine) and then fail to ticket without alerting me and giving me a chance to fix the credit card issue for the tax. Or, they also could have done me the favor of saying they were sorry for any misunderstandings and would have their liaison with AA try to open up additional award inventory when we discovered the problem two days ago.
Jul 26, 2019, 6:14 am
#22
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,212
Ok, if there was a discrepancy relating to the credit card details, we can look at the general conditions of purchase, which Iberia presents to the consumer during the booking process
The condition above states IB will check that the details supplied are correct and if necessary obtain alternative credit card details.
Ticket acquisition
Options for acquiring available tickets:
PURCHASING: apart from exceptions at certain origins-destinations*, tickets acquired through our website are in e-format. They are issued automatically and the charge is made directly to the payment card that you need to provide on the purchasing page.
If, when your payment card is charged the bank does not authorise the charge, it will inform us immeditaley about the problem via e-mail so that we can check that the details you have supplied are correct or if you have to provide us with a new payment card.
*In some countries of departure, the procedure for charging and issuing tickets may vary. In these cases, you will notified during the purchasing process about what you should do.
https://www.iberia.com/web/program.d...GB&language=enOptions for acquiring available tickets:
PURCHASING: apart from exceptions at certain origins-destinations*, tickets acquired through our website are in e-format. They are issued automatically and the charge is made directly to the payment card that you need to provide on the purchasing page.
If, when your payment card is charged the bank does not authorise the charge, it will inform us immeditaley about the problem via e-mail so that we can check that the details you have supplied are correct or if you have to provide us with a new payment card.
*In some countries of departure, the procedure for charging and issuing tickets may vary. In these cases, you will notified during the purchasing process about what you should do.
The condition above states IB will check that the details supplied are correct and if necessary obtain alternative credit card details.
Jul 26, 2019, 6:26 am
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 58
I do scan my spam folder every week, but in any case, it’s not relevant because when I asked the IB telephone agent whether anyone had tried to contact me about the cancellation, she said no. That aspect has not been in question.
Jul 26, 2019, 6:37 am
#25
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,212
BTW, I still think you have a valid breach of contract claim
Jul 26, 2019, 6:56 am
#26
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 58
I have searched all my email from Iberia, and the most recent one (before this week) was the one from April titled “Booking confirmation.” The bottom of that email has a bunch of “Don’t Forget” tips, but none of them give any hint that any further action on my part is required to complete the purchase. There was no subsequent email of any sort about the credit card issue. I only found out about the problem when I went to check the flight times a couple days before departure.
Jul 26, 2019, 8:09 am
#27
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,212
I have searched all my email from Iberia, and the most recent one (before this week) was the one from April titled “Booking confirmation.” The bottom of that email has a bunch of “Don’t Forget” tips, but none of them give any hint that any further action on my part is required to complete the purchase. There was no subsequent email of any sort about the credit card issue. I only found out about the problem when I went to check the flight times a couple days before departure.
Jul 26, 2019, 10:12 am
#28
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,351
Do you really think AA gives the same service in Spanish? They can't even make proper announcements in Spanish on flights to Spain or Latin America.
Jul 26, 2019, 10:32 am
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Not here; there!
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold
Posts: 29,584
Iberia Avios had a major program devaluation in May, correct? I wonder if the reason they chose not to communicate with me about the failed charge for the taxes was because they thought they could get more Avios out of me if I had to re-book?
Think it may be time to move all those points over to BA Avios so I never have to deal with this horrible company again. It seemed like a good home for my Amex points with the lower award levels than booking directly on AA for short flights, but this one incident basically erased all of that benefit - I'd have to cash in quite a few tickets at AA's higher redemption levels before the savings in miles were worth $1200!
Think it may be time to move all those points over to BA Avios so I never have to deal with this horrible company again. It seemed like a good home for my Amex points with the lower award levels than booking directly on AA for short flights, but this one incident basically erased all of that benefit - I'd have to cash in quite a few tickets at AA's higher redemption levels before the savings in miles were worth $1200!
Are you a current Citi or Barclays AAdvantage credit-card holder? If so, are you aware that TYS is on the list of July reduced-mileage-award destinations? I recently discovered that if one's home airport is a reduced-mileage-award destination, a round-trip award ticket originating at that airport also qualifies for discount on the entire trip (outbound and return segments). So your TYS-DCA-TYS Coach roundtrip, had it been booked with AAdvantage miles when SAAver availability existed, would have cost just 17,500 AA miles. That’s still more than the 12,000 Avios IB Plus would have charged, but better than the 25,000 miles that AA normally would have charged. Note: my AA mileage figures for the OP's route are incorrect; see my edit at the end of this post.
More info on AA reduced-mileage-awards here:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/aadvantage-p...dmileageawards
By the way, if instead of keeping credit cards on file with Iberia Plus you simply entered a credit card each time you made a redemption, you might have been able to avoid this unfortunate situation.
Edited to add: I just realized that, because AA's TYS-DCA nonstop is under 500 flight miles, AA would have only charged 15,000 for a MileSAAver Coach roundtrip at the "regular" (not "dynamic") MileSAAver redemption rates, and just 13,000 miles for the roundtrip utilizing the reduced-mileage-award destinations option if you are a credit-card holder. Given that IB Plus redemptions on AA are completely non-changeable/non-refundable, and given that EXPs can cancel AAdvantage awards and get a full refund with no cancellation fee, using AA miles would probably have been the way to go here. I use IB Plus Avios for short-haul redemptions on AA where connections are required; that's a very good use of IB Plus Avios.
Last edited by guv1976; Jul 26, 2019 at 12:50 pm
Jul 26, 2019, 11:23 am
#30
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: BAEC, Ib+, Accor, HHonors
Posts: 609