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-   Hilton | Hilton Honors (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilton-hilton-honors-417/)
-   -   2013 Changes to HH Reward Stays, new cat., more pts needed (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilton-hilton-honors/1440180-2013-changes-hh-reward-stays-new-cat-more-pts-needed.html)

BrightlyBob Mar 1, 2013 9:12 am

What chain can we all move to our stays to in protest? Marriott has carried out its own devaluation, IHG has "reorganised" it's scheme that increases the cost of stays in EU/NA, an effective devaluation itself if you live and holiday in these areas. Neither Hyatt nor SPG has the reach of Hilton/Marriott/IHG. So we're pretty snookered here.
In reality devaluations arena inevitable part of all these schemes that provide points based on spend but fixed rate redemptions. It's the effect of inflation...

pinniped Mar 1, 2013 10:35 am


Originally Posted by BrightlyBob (Post 20339775)
What chain can we all move to our stays to in protest?

Marriott's generall the best comparable to HHonors. Their devaluation this year was basically "category creep on steriods." If you can live with that, it's probably your destination.

By "best comparable" in my opinion, I'm taking into account the full scope of all of their midscale brands which are predominantly North America. In Europe, you might find that Starwood is actually close enough and worth a look...kind of depends on your specific cities/countries you visit most.

LowFlyOver Mar 1, 2013 12:24 pm


Originally Posted by BrightlyBob (Post 20339775)
What chain can we all move to our stays to in protest? Marriott has carried out its own devaluation, IHG has "reorganised" it's scheme that increases the cost of stays in EU/NA, an effective devaluation itself if you live and holiday in these areas. Neither Hyatt nor SPG has the reach of Hilton/Marriott/IHG. So we're pretty snookered here.
In reality devaluations arena inevitable part of all these schemes that provide points based on spend but fixed rate redemptions. It's the effect of inflation...

Yeah! Switch to Motel Seis. That will show 'em.

ben1233 Mar 1, 2013 3:59 pm

I just returned from a stay at the Boca Beach Club (learned of the deval on the day of my arrival!) so I inquired with the manager at the front desk about the situation. He was very well spoken, astute, and took time to explain the matter.

His explanation went all the way back to 9/11 and how everything took a nose dive. Then you had 2008/9 come along and wipe everything away again. Now the year is 2013 and hotel rates are starting to creep back to their highest levels in a long time (and yes inflation is there too). He indicated the change in the points structure is simply a laggard to the actual rates, plus they're trying to make up for the lost 2000's. The whole technical explanation was very MBA-flavored. I do sort of see his point. Boca Beach Clubs BAR was $700+ a night the week of Presidents Day. To get that type or locale and room for 42,500 points on a 4 nights stay is an incredible deal no matter which way you slice it. (I found an excellent group rate so I paid cash...)

All that said, BBC is now a category 9 with high season ringing it at 80k points. A 4-night stay this year would've cost me about 170K points, now it'd cost me 320K. Is that a ridiculous increase? Yes. Should there have been an increase? Yes, albeit not of that magnitude (at LEAST all at once). And the whole 5th night free thing is plain stupid.

As another poster mentioned, in anticpiation for the end of March, I tried booking my stay (on points) for next year 2014. All that's showing is a 1 king bed accessible room for standard redemption, even though they show availibility for regular kings and double-bedded rooms. Seems like trickery to me. I'm going to call them out on this, but it might not help. I love the BBC. :(

san888 Mar 1, 2013 7:35 pm


Originally Posted by Ritz (Post 20337162)
How exactly would you suggest they "compensate loyal members"? Undo the announced program changes? Deposit an incredible amount of points unilaterally in top elite accounts? Cut the redemption ratio requirements for top elites?

This is very simple, I earned the points under the old redemption period and most as stays not credit card spend. If you are gold or diamond pro-rate the existing points by a fair factor.

Going forward they have every right to make an adjustment but to devalue existing points that I had saved to use in 2014. Existing points should not be worth less.

My example is I have a bank account balance that has earned interest at a rate of 3%. The rate going forward changes to 1%. Should the bank then devalue the interest already earned.

I THINK NOT!!!! Just a bunch of greedy corporate jerks. I was loyal to the brand.....why are they not loyal to me!!

trueblu Mar 2, 2013 5:10 am


Originally Posted by san888 (Post 20343257)
This is very simple, I earned the points under the old redemption period and most as stays not credit card spend. If you are gold or diamond pro-rate the existing points by a fair factor.

Going forward they have every right to make an adjustment but to devalue existing points that I had saved to use in 2014. Existing points should not be worth less.

My example is I have a bank account balance that has earned interest at a rate of 3%. The rate going forward changes to 1%. Should the bank then devalue the interest already earned.

I THINK NOT!!!! Just a bunch of greedy corporate jerks. I was loyal to the brand.....why are they not loyal to me!!

Whilst I'm also upset at the devaluation, I don't think you've understood what devaluation means. One doesn't earn interest on HH points, unlike your bank account. The correct analogy might be that you saved up $x to buy a home, but by the time you got the deposit sorted, home prices had risen 80%. A very real, and far more serious situation.

HH isn't taking away any of your points, they have just decided they are worth less, going forward. Irritating, even infuriariting, but entirely within the gift of the programme.

tb

Andy2 Mar 2, 2013 7:52 am


Originally Posted by ben1233 (Post 20342381)
I just returned from a stay at the Boca Beach Club (learned of the deval on the day of my arrival!) so I inquired with the manager at the front desk about the situation. He was very well spoken, astute, and took time to explain the matter.

His explanation went all the way back to 9/11 and how everything took a nose dive. Then you had 2008/9 come along and wipe everything away again. Now the year is 2013 and hotel rates are starting to creep back to their highest levels in a long time (and yes inflation is there too). He indicated the change in the points structure is simply a laggard to the actual rates, plus they're trying to make up for the lost 2000's. The whole technical explanation was very MBA-flavored. I do sort of see his point. Boca Beach Clubs BAR was $700+ a night the week of Presidents Day. To get that type or locale and room for 42,500 points on a 4 nights stay is an incredible deal no matter which way you slice it. (I found an excellent group rate so I paid cash...)

All that said, BBC is now a category 9 with high season ringing it at 80k points. A 4-night stay this year would've cost me about 170K points, now it'd cost me 320K. Is that a ridiculous increase? Yes. Should there have been an increase? Yes, albeit not of that magnitude (at LEAST all at once). And the whole 5th night free thing is plain stupid.

As another poster mentioned, in anticpiation for the end of March, I tried booking my stay (on points) for next year 2014. All that's showing is a 1 king bed accessible room for standard redemption, even though they show availibility for regular kings and double-bedded rooms. Seems like trickery to me. I'm going to call them out on this, but it might not help. I love the BBC. :(

I would offer a similar but more simplistic analogy that is not so flavored in favor of Hilton. During the recession, room occupancy was low so Hilton earned cash by selling points to AMEX, rather than earning as much cash from room rentals. Now that the recession in the travel industry has largely ended, Hilton can earn its cash from selling rooms and the promise to provide free rooms to those who previously acquired miles (primarily from AMEX) gets in the way of selling rooms for cash. So the solution in their minds is to provide fewer rooms in exchange for points by massively increasing the redemption rates. If it was a remotely customer-friendly entity, Hilton would issued F'ed Over Certificates to those who had accumulated points, or simply take everyone's current balance and give them 50% more points.

Ravenboy2001 Mar 2, 2013 2:13 pm

Another Diamond here who will be staying elsewhere for the rest of 2013.

This program has been in the toilet on slow-flush since 2009.

Hilton basically devalues EVERY hotel in their system at one time? Unreal.

I also have Diamond status with Hyatt. Deval for 2013 for Hyatt? Only SEVEN (7) properties in their entire portfolio were affected by tier/points changes for 2013.

Hyatt may not have as many properties as Hilton, but their program blows away Hilton by a long shot.

Ravenboy2001 Mar 2, 2013 2:42 pm


Originally Posted by luv2ctheworld (Post 20328897)
ilton would certainly be forced to change it.


Another sad reality. Award points are going to get more and more devalued. This can be seen by what Southwest, JetBlue, and possibly what Delta will do with FBATR (fare based award ticket redemption).


Sad, but true...

Excellent post, but I need to point out that 2-3 times a year, Southwest does a big $49-$99 sale (or something along those lines) and those sales offer Rapid Rewards customers plane tickets at a huge points discount as long as they are purchased during the sale period.

Throw in the Companion Pass for frequent travelers and it's really one of the better programs in the industry. My wife and I have taken 3 trips in the last 12 months using Companion Pass and purchasing my ticket during the sales period and I used less then 25,000 rewards points for ALL 3 TRIPS combined.

People scoff at SW for not having First Class upgrades, but their bonus program is excellent. In fact, they are running double points/double tier qualifying all the way through May 15 this year. Unheard of by other airlines.

jamesteroh Mar 2, 2013 3:13 pm


Originally Posted by Ravenboy2001 (Post 20347538)
Excellent post, but I need to point out that 2-3 times a year, Southwest does a big $49-$99 sale (or something along those lines) and those sales offer Rapid Rewards customers plane tickets at a huge points discount as long as they are purchased during the sale period.

Throw in the Companion Pass for frequent travelers and it's really one of the better programs in the industry. My wife and I have taken 3 trips in the last 12 months using Companion Pass and purchasing my ticket during the sales period and I used less then 25,000 rewards points for ALL 3 TRIPS combined.

People scoff at SW for not having First Class upgrades, but their bonus program is excellent. In fact, they are running double points/double tier qualifying all the way through May 15 this year. Unheard of by other airlines.

For me WN REALLY devalued their program getting rid of RR1. When RR1 was around I could get over 20 free flights a year and companion pass by spending only $800 a year in airfare (four to give cheap dtw/MDW flights) and the rest was earned on visa/diners club spend and Hilton stays. There were a few changes that occured after Herb left I didn't care for but getting rid of RR1 was enough for me to stop flying WN on paid flights. But I also realize I wasn't a true loyal customer of WN, and I wasn't happy with the changes but I didn't go around complaining that I was a loyal customer getting screwed by Southwest.

DevilDawg1960 Mar 2, 2013 3:23 pm

When I received the email I decided not to do any research right away as I knew that I would have an emotional response. Waited till today to read up on the changes and the go through the 54 pages or comment here. I let the last two major devaluations make me miserable; ironically I stayed with Hilton in the end.
I am glad that I was able to spend seven weeks in Hawaii back during the 100k era. I was also able to stay at both the Hilton Eiffel Tower and Hilton Arch de Triumph when they were in the system. The Conrad Tokyo is one of my favorite hotels. Add in Hilton Amsterdam, Hilton Shanghai, Hilton Trafalgar, and many others and I have to say that I have had some magical times using my HH points. I have been a Diamond member since 1996.
That said, I am really disappointed by this latest devaluation. With 900,000 points in my account I will be talking with my wife about the best strategy to use them. We will also discuss what our best options are going forward and will make a decision on whether to stay with Hilton based on what will give us the best value/experience. While I would have preferred that these changes had not been made, the fact is that they have. Being a Diamond today is significantly different than it was in the 90's. That is life. I have hung on for the last couple of years hoping that Hilton would offer lifetime status. In looking at the future, that will be a consideration in looking at other programs.
Instead of getting angry and upset I choose to look at this as an opportunity to plan a fantastic trip with the love of my life and to use the analytical skills that make an informed decision about my future travel.
Whether I stay or go, thank you Hilton for some really great times.

luv2ctheworld Mar 2, 2013 4:27 pm


Originally Posted by Ravenboy2001 (Post 20347538)
Excellent post, but I need to point out that 2-3 times a year, Southwest does a big $49-$99 sale (or something along those lines) and those sales offer Rapid Rewards customers plane tickets at a huge points discount as long as they are purchased during the sale period.
...
People scoff at SW for not having First Class upgrades, but their bonus program is excellent. In fact, they are running double points/double tier qualifying all the way through May 15 this year. Unheard of by other airlines.

While the occasional sale is nice; the reality is that window to redeem is very limited, and the overall direction of these award programs is still negative. Sales like the ones you mention are only good for flights that are on schedule, forget trying to book something beyond that. Plus, the sales are limited in cities.

WN's bonus program is decent sometimes; if you look @ AA/UA/DL, they also offered double EQM's at one time or another. They also have discounted award bookings occasionally as well.


Originally Posted by DevilDawg1960 (Post 20347736)
... Instead of getting angry and upset I choose to look at this as an opportunity to plan a fantastic trip with the love of my life and to use the analytical skills that make an informed decision about my future travel.
Whether I stay or go, thank you Hilton for some really great times.

Well said... A man who looks at his glass as always half full.

travelinfoo Mar 2, 2013 6:12 pm


Originally Posted by DevilDawg1960 (Post 20347736)
When I received the email I decided not to do any research right away as I knew that I would have an emotional response. Waited till today to read up on the changes and the go through the 54 pages or comment here. I let the last two major devaluations make me miserable; ironically I stayed with Hilton in the end.
I am glad that I was able to spend seven weeks in Hawaii back during the 100k era. I was also able to stay at both the Hilton Eiffel Tower and Hilton Arch de Triumph when they were in the system. The Conrad Tokyo is one of my favorite hotels. Add in Hilton Amsterdam, Hilton Shanghai, Hilton Trafalgar, and many others and I have to say that I have had some magical times using my HH points. I have been a Diamond member since 1996.
That said, I am really disappointed by this latest devaluation. With 900,000 points in my account I will be talking with my wife about the best strategy to use them. We will also discuss what our best options are going forward and will make a decision on whether to stay with Hilton based on what will give us the best value/experience. While I would have preferred that these changes had not been made, the fact is that they have. Being a Diamond today is significantly different than it was in the 90's. That is life. I have hung on for the last couple of years hoping that Hilton would offer lifetime status. In looking at the future, that will be a consideration in looking at other programs.
Instead of getting angry and upset I choose to look at this as an opportunity to plan a fantastic trip with the love of my life and to use the analytical skills that make an informed decision about my future travel.
Whether I stay or go, thank you Hilton for some really great times.

What a nice post! Have a great time with your wife using your points.

I, too, have had some great vacations courtesy of my Hilton points. I had been Diamond for 6 consecutive yrs (dropping this yr), earning 400+K points per yr for many yrs. over the yrs, I have experienced many devaluations of both airline & hotel loyalty programs. As a result, I use my points quickly to get the most value from them.

The loyalty programs are not banks. Saving points/ miles will only lead to disappointment since they do not hold value. I'm busy trying to use my remaining 450k since many of my favorite hotels are on the list for the massive point increases. The biggest limitation is not enough vacation time. Looks like my days of low cost vacation courtesy of Hilton are over :(

jamesteroh Mar 2, 2013 6:28 pm


Originally Posted by travelinfoo (Post 20348526)
The loyalty programs are not banks. Saving points/ miles will only lead to disappointment since they do not hold value. I'm busy trying to use my remaining 450k since many of my favorite hotels are on the list for the massive point increases. The biggest limitation is not enough vacation time. Looks like my days of low cost vacation courtesy of Hilton are over :(

I wish I wouldn't have saved all my points. I used them for a couple Trafalgar and Miami bentley trips and DT times square on new years so I have gotten some VERY EXPENSIVE stays out of them, but I still have almost 2 million points. Wish I would have used them sooner, I figured with the devaluation in 09 it would be a while before Hilton did another one, and never dreamed it would be this bad:(

I'm wish I could book out to July 2014 for a europe trip I know I will be taking.

Ritz Mar 2, 2013 6:31 pm


Originally Posted by jamesteroh (Post 20348582)
I wish I wouldn't have saved all my points. I used them for a couple Trafalgar and Miami bentley trips and DT times square on new years so I have gotten some VERY EXPENSIVE stays out of them, but I still have almost 2 million points. Wish I would have used them sooner, I figured with the devaluation in 09 it would be a while before Hilton did another one, and never dreamed it would be this bad:(

I'm wish I could book out to July 2014 for a europe trip I know I will be taking.

I hear ya - in the same boat. But with a couple of prior trips scheduled, I've now just decided to some AXONs on across the board. Also, I've now invited some relatives on the aforementioned trips, and just add some additional room to the reservations. At the very least, I'll get a few free dinners on some exotic excursions out of them. :D


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