Hertz selling 1/3 of its EV fleet

Old Jan 12, 2024, 5:59 am
  #16  
 
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I have an ev as my commuter car n love it, however, it's very unlikely for me to rent one as vacation/business trip in a new city I'm not familiar with n try to map n schedule my charging when I can easily go in n out in ice car to fill up the gas almost everywhere.
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Old Jan 12, 2024, 6:49 am
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by Ragnarok
As an EV owner who have taken my non-technology oriented older parents on a road trip in EVs, I feel like there are some useful contexts here that I can add.
There are some Hertz specific and timing factor in here as well.

The charging experience with Tesla are very easy, after a brief explanation to my 60+ years old parents that it's really just like charging and using an iPhone, they get it. Even let them try charging the car and they got it right. But you can't just give one to an inexperienced renter without that heads up. Now, admittedly, the non-Tesla charging experience is not good at all right now.

This is made worse by "Manager's Special". This would have been much better experience if they were just placed at the PC section for people who want/knows/curious about EVs.
WSJ wrote about this in September, and it wasn't just Hertz. Rental agencies have been assigning EVs to renters who didn't request one (either because of the "manager's special" or because that's all they had) and then the renter runs into issues because of inexperience or because of how they planned to use the vehicle.

WSJ - The Paradox of EV Car Rentals
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Old Jan 12, 2024, 7:44 am
  #18  
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Hertz missed the curve on this (pun intended).

The US is lagging behind Europe, Canada and China on EV adoption. There was an important spike in demand but it seems to have plateaued. I suspect that adaptation is orders of magnitude stronger on the Northeast and Western Coasts and very much lower in the middle and Southern US leading to a false sense of overall demand.

The question remains where EV adoption is going overall? When will it reach the tipping point? Or will it be relocated to wherever the metric system was stored?
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Old Jan 12, 2024, 8:37 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by PLeblond
The US is lagging behind Europe, Canada and China on EV adoption. There was an important spike in demand but it seems to have plateaued.
In the US, you really need to break it down and look at Tesla and non-Tesla EVs separately. A big part of that is the charging networks. Up until recently, Tesla used their propriety Supercharger network and everyone else use J1772 and CCS1. Teslas can also use J1772 for Level 1 and Level 2 charging with the included adapter. By the end of 2025, almost all EVs delivered in North America will have Tesla's NACS port and older models will be able to use NACS with an adapter.

The largest CCS charging network in the US is Electrify America which was started by VW as part of their Diesel Gate reparations. The network is unreliable and has relatively few chargers at most of their charging stations. It is not a good experience for CCS cars. Other CCS networks can be better, but there are also a lot of problems reported.

The Tesla Model Y was the top selling vehicle worldwide in 2023. It was #2 in the US, with the Ford F150 ICE truck taking the first spot.

Tesla had a big head start over the legacy manufacturers, with their first large scale vehicle being introduced in 2012, and have gotten through the stage filled with growing pains. The Legacy automakers are having a lot problems making the switch and are losing a lot of money on their EV offerings.

As to renting, another issue is that renters who aren't familiar with EVs don't understand that it is not generally productive to charge to 100% due to the charge curve and battery design. With Lithium Ion batteries, which are in most EVs in the US, you only charge that high when needed. The Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) battery is happy being charged to 100% daily but all of them have charge curves that really slow down about 80% state-of-charge, or so. If you are waiting for the car to charge, only charge enough for the trip to the next charger, plus a reasonable reserve. When charging overnight, at a destination charger, then charge higher when needed, or when you have the LFP battery.

How is a casual renter supposed to know all of this? The renter has to be willing to learn or their experience will not be ideal.
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Old Jan 12, 2024, 11:16 am
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Repooc17
I have always seen EV rental rates being cheaper, sometimes much cheaper than the cheapest gasoline vehicle. I will choose the latter.
Substitute "usually" for "always" and I agree. It's clear that most renters don't want EVs and Hertz bought way too many of them.

And on top of the generally lower EV pricing, Hertz has also been sending tons of promotional emails offering additional discounts on EV rentals. It's clear they are having trouble moving these cars.

At a recent trip to TPA, PC/5* zones were nearly all Teslas and Polestars. I had to go into the office to beg them to find me a decent car I was willing to take. They finally dredged up a Maxima out of that sea of way way too many EVs.
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Old Jan 13, 2024, 5:30 am
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by PLeblond
Hertz missed the curve on this (pun intended).

The US is lagging behind Europe, Canada and China on EV adoption. There was an important spike in demand but it seems to have plateaued. I suspect that adaptation is orders of magnitude stronger on the Northeast and Western Coasts and very much lower in the middle and Southern US leading to a false sense of overall demand.

The question remains where EV adoption is going overall? When will it reach the tipping point? Or will it be relocated to wherever the metric system was stored?
The new Hertz board has only one person with a background in cars. The rest are all finance guys, and only a group like that could have approved a dumb idea like going all in on EVs for rental fleets.

I predict this will be looked back upon as one of the first warning signs in the eventual abandonment of EVs. They will never be more than a niche product. The actual future is in gasoline, synthetic gas, natural gas, hydrogen, etc.
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Old Jan 13, 2024, 5:42 am
  #22  
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Originally Posted by m907
The new Hertz board has only one person with a background in cars. The rest are all finance guys, and only a group like that could have approved a dumb idea like going all in on EVs for rental fleets.

I predict this will be looked back upon as one of the first warning signs in the eventual abandonment of EVs. They will never be more than a niche product. The actual future is in gasoline, synthetic gas, natural gas, hydrogen, etc.
Living in Quebec, and travelling to Europe, I would beg to differ. They are everywhere and contrary to the US, no signs of a major slowdown in car lot inventory or dealer sales cycle times. The tipping point is very near.

I drive 80km a day for work. Switching to an electric car would net me $5000/year in fuel savings with zero downside. I am a 'car guy' who loves engines and worked in automotive for 15+ years. I have always stated that I will be the last person on earth with an electric car but fully aware that I am in the laggard camp on this.

As I stated earlier, perhaps the US will do with electric cars what it did to the metric system, but if so, the rest of the world will be motoring on electric (pun intended).
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Old Jan 13, 2024, 1:52 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by PLeblond
Living in Quebec, and travelling to Europe, I would beg to differ. They are everywhere and contrary to the US, no signs of a major slowdown in car lot inventory or dealer sales cycle times. The tipping point is very near.

I drive 80km a day for work. Switching to an electric car would net me $5000/year in fuel savings with zero downside. I am a 'car guy' who loves engines and worked in automotive for 15+ years. I have always stated that I will be the last person on earth with an electric car but fully aware that I am in the laggard camp on this.

As I stated earlier, perhaps the US will do with electric cars what it did to the metric system, but if so, the rest of the world will be motoring on electric (pun intended).
I'm (nearly) all-in on EVs. I love renting one whenever I can and we own one as well for the fuel savings alone. However, how do you come up with $5000/year savings on 80km/day? I live in the US, so I converted to the silly American units. 80km/day is 50 miles. Assuming an average vehicle with 25 mpg, that's 2 gallons of gas a day. Worst case scenario in most of N.A. is ~$5/gallon. That's $10/day in fuel. Even if you drive 50 miles every single day, that's $3,650/yr in fuel. Before subtracting the cost for electricity. Are you paying way more than that for fuel or driving something way worse than 25mpg?
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Old Jan 13, 2024, 2:07 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by m907
I predict this will be looked back upon as one of the first warning signs in the eventual abandonment of EVs. They will never be more than a niche product. The actual future is in gasoline, synthetic gas, natural gas, hydrogen, etc.
Lol, that's such a stretch. EV with the current infrastructure is not a good fit for rental car. However, ev as a long commuter car is a perfect fit. My dad was commuting 50 miles 1-way when he got his tesla, while his electric bill went up $100, it's nothing compare to $250-350 gas he usually spend on his previous car. If you are multiple car household, getting ev is no brainer, just keep 1 ice car for roadtrip n use ev for everything else.
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Old Jan 13, 2024, 2:22 pm
  #25  
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Originally Posted by IAHtraveler
I'm (nearly) all-in on EVs. I love renting one whenever I can and we own one as well for the fuel savings alone. However, how do you come up with $5000/year savings on 80km/day? I live in the US, so I converted to the silly American units. 80km/day is 50 miles. Assuming an average vehicle with 25 mpg, that's 2 gallons of gas a day. Worst case scenario in most of N.A. is ~$5/gallon. That's $10/day in fuel. Even if you drive 50 miles every single day, that's $3,650/yr in fuel. Before subtracting the cost for electricity. Are you paying way more than that for fuel or driving something way worse than 25mpg?
Canada (CAD) and my car needs Super gasoline. Also Quebec has the lowest electricity costs in NA (perhaps the world). I also drive elsewhere than to and from work.

Sorry for the metric calculations but it finishes in dollars, though CAD.

Gas: My car averages 9.5l/100km. Requires Super/Premium currently at $1.80/litre --> cost is $0.171/km
Electric Given current rates, my brother/father with electric cars: Cost for charging at home --> $0.015/km

Savings Delta/km = $0.156
Last year I drove 33,000ish km
Potential savings = $5,184

(9.5l/100km = 25 mpg)

Edit: Added link to Hydro Quebec estimate of savings: https://www.hydroquebec.com/transpor...r-savings.html
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Last edited by PLeblond; Jan 13, 2024 at 2:56 pm
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Old Jan 13, 2024, 9:08 pm
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by PLeblond
Living in Quebec, and travelling to Europe, I would beg to differ. They are everywhere and contrary to the US, no signs of a major slowdown in car lot inventory or dealer sales cycle times. The tipping point is very near.

I drive 80km a day for work. Switching to an electric car would net me $5000/year in fuel savings with zero downside. I am a 'car guy' who loves engines and worked in automotive for 15+ years. I have always stated that I will be the last person on earth with an electric car but fully aware that I am in the laggard camp on this.

As I stated earlier, perhaps the US will do with electric cars what it did to the metric system, but if so, the rest of the world will be motoring on electric (pun intended).
EV sales in the United States were 8% in Q3 2023. Ford and GM are scaling back their EV plans. Tesla is slashing prices. The tipping point is not coming.

Originally Posted by Taikucing
Lol, that's such a stretch. EV with the current infrastructure is not a good fit for rental car. However, ev as a long commuter car is a perfect fit. My dad was commuting 50 miles 1-way when he got his tesla, while his electric bill went up $100, it's nothing compare to $250-350 gas he usually spend on his previous car. If you are multiple car household, getting ev is no brainer, just keep 1 ice car for roadtrip n use ev for everything else.
It might be a perfect fit for someone who 1) can afford two cars, 2) limits himself to short and predictable routes, 3) lives in a densely populated area with access to chargers, 4) lives in year-round warm weather, and 5) is willing to pay over $50k for an electric car and willing to watch it depreciate to zero over a few years. For a small portion of the upper middle class and upper class, those criteria might be met. For people in areas like the one in which I live and people in different economic categories, those criteria cannot be met.

​​​​​​​It seems like every argument in favor of EVs is "they work great for me and people I know". There seems to be an inability to understand different situations.
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Old Jan 14, 2024, 4:57 am
  #27  
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[QUOTE=m907;35907052]EV sales in the United States were 8% in Q3 2023. Ford and GM are scaling back their EV plans. Tesla is slashing prices. The tipping point is not coming.

[QUOTE]

I believe I said...twice... that the tipping point is coming in Canada & Europe. And specifically stated...twice...that the US market may not follow the trend of the rest of the free world. Both times making a parallel to the metric system, which seems to be regarded as voodoo magic by a large portion of the US population.

And in no way should this be surprising. The US does its own thing for the most part and has the highest level of individualism in the world. For those interested there was an excellent dive into this from Freakonimics Radio in 2021:
Ep. 469: The US Is Just Different: So Let's Stop Pretending We're Not
Ep 470: The Pros and Cons of America's (Extreme) Individualism
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Old Jan 14, 2024, 10:32 am
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Originally Posted by m907
EV sales in the United States were 8% in Q3 2023. Ford and GM are scaling back their EV plans. Tesla is slashing prices. The tipping point is not coming.
Tesla sales in 2023 (1.81 million units) were 37.7% higher than in 2022.

In 2020-2022, Tesla increased prices multiple times because they couldn't ramp up production fast enough. As production numbers increased, prices came back down. The ICE cars did the same thing with their dealer market adjustments and by not discounting below MSRP which has always been the standard, due to supply chain problems following the pandemic. Those prices have also dropped again. Interest rates are up. That limits the amount of the payment that any buyer can pay. Same issues for both EV and ICE.

Legacy manufacturers are caught were Tesla was eight or ten years ago. They can't scale profitably and, high interest rates and other economic factors, are preventing them from spending the capital to push through the hump quickly. They also aren't yet making great EVs. They make some good ones, but they aren't great and they still rely on sub-standard charging networks in the US which will continue to be an issue until they've completed their transitions to NACS. Legacy brands rely on their Dealership networks which aren't working for the consumers and are resisting the EV transition because of the maintenance and repair business they will lose.

The Tesla Model Y was the best selling vehicle in the world in 2023. It was the second best selling vehicle in the US, coming in behind the F150 ICE. Tesla has models that cost less than the median cost of the new car in the US and, in a couple more years, will have a mass market EV that will be affordable to a large percentage of the new-car buyers.

If you don't want an EV then don't buy one. They don't have to be for everybody. I've never owned a pickup truck and I've never posted on a thread about pickup trucks to tell truck owners why they shouldn't want them.
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Old Jan 14, 2024, 12:05 pm
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Originally Posted by m907
EV sales in the United States were 8% in Q3 2023. Ford and GM are scaling back their EV plans. Tesla is slashing prices. The tipping point is not coming.



It might be a perfect fit for someone who 1) can afford two cars, 2) limits himself to short and predictable routes, 3) lives in a densely populated area with access to chargers, 4) lives in year-round warm weather, and 5) is willing to pay over $50k for an electric car and willing to watch it depreciate to zero over a few years. For a small portion of the upper middle class and upper class, those criteria might be met. For people in areas like the one in which I live and people in different economic categories, those criteria cannot be met.

It seems like every argument in favor of EVs is "they work great for me and people I know". There seems to be an inability to understand different situations.
Lol, you dont have ev n making up excuses to make u look good, yet it sounds stupid for us who actually owned ev.

1. Can afford 2 cars - as I said in my post, if u are a multiple car household - which most US household is, it's a no brainer to own ev as your primary car n use the ice car for long trip. If you are 1 car household, get tesla for their charging network. My parent is one of them. It doesnt stop them to go to niagara falls, boston, atlanta because of the vast availability of tesla supercharging network.

2. limits himself to short predictable route - my car range is 200 miles, how many times per day in a week do you actually drive 200 miles in 1 trip/day? LOL

3. Lives in densely populated area with access to charger - 🤣🤣🤣 That's why you install level 2 charger at home, DOH. I only need access to public charger when I have to go more than 200 miles.

4. Lives in year round warm weather - umm no, my ev is working just fine in winter, I just accept the limitation that the range will be shorter n plan accordingly. Do you know what else winter weather affect? ICE car MPG.

5. Sure, ev has its premium over ice car now, not all ev is over 50k, plenty of them are only $5-10k premium now. And due to people like you, I was able to get my current ev for cheap. Car depreciates, so what? Do u think ice car dont depreciate? Ice car with the same price as ev will depreciate at similar rate to ev unless it's a toyota or honda. Lol. And that means I'll be able to pick up used ev for cheap, why is that bad? Lol. U dont buy car n expect it to grow in value.

If you really want to complain about ev, make some valid argument. Plenty of them without making excuses like yours. Here are some

1. Dont buy ev if you have no access to home charger. Can it be done? Yes, especially if u have tesla, but charging it won't be cheap n convenient which defeat the purpose of getting an ev.

2. EV will used up tires n brakes more compare to ice car because it's heavier. Some ev suv are running staggered tire setup to help with traction but will make tire longevity worse since u can't rotate it.

3. EV is more expensive to repair if you got into accident, especially tesla with its body casting which make it cheap to produce but more expensive to repair.

4. Due to number 3, it will be more expensive to insure as well.

5. Using an ev will expect u to change your mindset on driving car, unlike ice car, u will need to understand the car range n how it will fit into your trip. Thus, as I said multiple times, having one ice car for long trip will help a lot with this issue.

Here are some benefit

1. Home charging an ev is cheap, especially when you run TOU plan on your electricty.

2. As long as u have access to home charging, u will have access to your car full range everytime u go out of your home everyday.

3. No oil change, no radiator, no differential oil, no transmission oil. Less maintenance n less trip to mechanic (which cause some dealership to balk at selling ev)

4. Instant torque, even the cheapest ev feels faster than ice car. Not a priority for me but it does for some.

So with my experience, knowing what I need, I'm planning to pick up used mini se for cheap in 2-3 years for probably around 15k, knowing it only has 120 miles range. It will be a good fit for my commuting or my son's car for school.

Last edited by Taikucing; Jan 14, 2024 at 1:45 pm
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Old Jan 15, 2024, 6:54 am
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Wouldn't a plug in hybrid make more sense in a rental car fleet? Buy a bunch of Hyundai Ioniq's?
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