luvs2fly

Ok for you pro's..... I will be traveling to the Big Island on Nov. 20th. I am thinking of traveling on Saddle Rd to the observatory. ( Kona to Hilo) Anyone have any suggestions?? I have read several different things, both pos. and neg.. I will be in a high performance mini van. 4 Adults and 1 child. Any thoughts on going up for sunset and watching the stars?? Or is it better to go during the day? Has anyone here made the trip recently?? Any thoughts or recomendations would be appereciated. Thanks in Advance

l etoile

I've only been up at night. If you go in the evening be sure and dress warmly, meaning have parkas, gloves, hats.

Mary2e

I wouldn't drive up there myself, especially at night.

Why?

Well, unless you're used to being at 14,000 ft you or someone in your party may get altitude sickness. Didn't bother me, but the tour guides carry oxygen just in case.

The Saddle Road is narrow & paved up until about 10,000 ft. There is a small rest station (I think that's what it is). Most tour operators stop there for an hour or so to acclimate the passengers & to feed them.

After that point the road is dirt & considerably narrower. Even with our experienced driver I was really nervous getting up to the telescopes.

It's REALLY COLD AND WINDY UP THERE. The tour operators provide you with warm jackets with hoods and gloves. I had pants, socks & a sweatshirt in addition to the parka & was still cold.

The altitude didn't bother me, but it seems like you're in slow motion at 14,000 ft. Moving is difficult.

I also wouldn't do the drive from Hilo - too far.

I have to tell you I was thrilled to be back down at sea level. The altitude does take it's toll on you. I was very tired & hungry AND I have low blood pressure, which makes it easier for me to go up in altitude.

Would I do it again? No. Unless you're REALLY into astronomy & want to see inside of one or two of those huge telescopes AND/OR see the moonscape up there I didn't find this trip particularly interesting.

Definitely take a tour if you want to go up.

Mary

slippahs

Like others have said, I completely agree that I would not drive on Saddle Road at night. I almost lost my life on that road.

Secondly, the drive up Mauna Kea can be pretty rough. The pavement does end after a certain elevation and there are no lights. The scientists do make frequent night trips up but they're quite acclimated to the elevation. Although it might sound like a good idea, I'd remain vigilent about your parties' health conditions, if you do good and just make sure everyone is okay. Given that, check the conditions or call before you head up ( check warning at http://hokukea.soest.hawaii.edu/forecast/mko/index.cgi ).

Would I head up again? Not at night, but certainly during the day, even if I have to put up with Saddle Road. (Just to see snow in the islands )

Aloha

dhuey

Saddle Road is more annoying than scary to me. It's bumpy and too narrow, and it takes a good long while to get to the road to the observatory. (BTW, I think the observatory road is about midway between Hilo and the Kona coast).

I agree with the others about altitude effects. I am very athletic, but I got winded just walking around the telescopes. Perhaps you can get used to it, but I wasn't.

As for a night trip. Hmmm... Is there some way for you to get a 4WD? You can probably do the gravel part of the road in a 2WD, but a 4WD would give you some peace of mind, especially at night.

j379pa

If you're renting, check your agreement. I'm there next week, and it specifically said I couldn't take the car on Saddle Road.

JP

l etoile

There's some confusing and misinformation on this thread. I hope I can clarify some things.

Saddle Road doesn't take you to the
observatories, it takes you to the roads to the observatories. It's really not a big deal. Rental car companies don't want you there because there are no services and it's an expensive tow if your car breaks down. (They do allow the scientists working at the observatories to take their vehicles on Saddle Road and up to the observatories.) Cars also use more gas at higher elevations, so make sure your tank's full. It is paved, but not well maintained. The edges of the road are rough, meaning if you can drive in the center your ride will be much smoother. We didn't really find the road that bad. There were no major potholes that I can remember. It was just uncomfortable if you had to ride on the edges, which appeared to be deliberately designed to give you a washboard feel - guess that slows people down. It can also be foggy in parts and it's not lighted. (Obviously, don't drive in the center if there's fog.) Personally, I think you can be safer on it at night simply because you can usually see headlights from a good distance.
ASAIK, there is still one independent company - Harpers? - that allows you to take their vehicles on Saddle Road, but when I checked they were quite expensive. We've taken our regular 4WD rental and it was no problem. We did hit a bad patch of fog, so do use caution.

John A. Burns Way comes off Saddle Road about marker 28 and goes up to the visitor center where they have Star Parties most nights. Basically, a bunch of astronomers are there with portable telescopes set up and aimed at whatever happens to be out. Burns Way is paved to the visitor center. Do a search on the Mauna Kea visitor center to find out the star party hours/days. The road to the visitor center is steep, but not so bad that you can't do it in a 2WD. I've seen lots of 2WDs up there. Beyond that, the road is not-paved for four miles or so and then it's paved again. They do keep you from going up at that point if you don't have a 4WD. Visitors also aren't allowed at the top after dark. If you do get a 4WD, you can go on a daytime follow-the-leader tour up to the major observatories. You follow them in your 4WD.

While the summit has all the observatories, these aren't the kind of telescopes you look through and only one - Keck - lets visitors in to the gallery see its scope.

I don't know when you're going, but they do get snow and, as I mentioned previously, it's freezing cold up there (even at the star parties) so dress warm. The visitor center does have hot chocolate, tea and coffee.

It really comes down to a couple of things:

1)If you're going to rent a 2WD your only real option is going to the visitor center. I can't think of any reason to go there during the day.

2) If you rent a 4WD (and most rental companies don't guarantee a 4WD, just a SUV which could be 2WD), then you have the option of going up during the day and seeing the summit. I suppose you could time it so you came down and hung around the visitor center until the stars came out.

Before we'd ever done this trip, we'd read the horror stories too. Once we did the trip, we pretty much thought it was a piece of cake and wondered what all the fuss was about. That's not to say there's never been an accident on Saddle, but as conjested as Hawaii has become, you're probably as likely to get in an accident most anywhere else on the island as on Saddle Road.

[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 10-17-2003).]

slippahs

Hawai'i is like a packed Continental F cabin. There's always people trying to get in with no room left. Okay, bad analogy...

You're right... Saddle Road had far fewer accidents compared to other highways on Hawai'i -- point well taken. However, it's not that you're getting into accidents with others... it's that you're getting into one car accidents given how the road is constructed:

The quote, taken from http://www.saddleroad.com/nl1.html this page indicates the proportional numbers of accidents happening on Saddle Road.

Many accidents occur during inclement weather, speeding, army vehicles, etc.

I can personally contest to an extremely bad accident on Saddle Road where I almost lost my life. Let's just say that the weather was poor, we weren't speeding (I was in the passenger seat) and we hydroplaned into a tree (a tree which ironically had three car crashes into it that same week, one being on that very same morning -- cop said work of Pele, if you're into that stuff). A one car crash -- totalled the Ford Explorer we were in.

So... although Saddle Road can be dangerous, most times its not. Just drive safely.... and yes, my apologies if I made it sound like Saddle Road led to the observatories on top of Mauna Kea. It doesn't.

Aloha!

TA

as one of the astronomers who has taken this route a couple of times, let me give you a few observations.

1. you will not get in trouble just for taking a car on the Saddle Road, the road to the observatories, or even the unpaved dirt/gravel road after the visitor center and up the mountain. No one is going to stop you or arrest you. But if something goes wrong, you will probably be out a big chunk of $$ from towing or roadside assistance. On the other hand, nothing has gone wrong in the many times I've done this yet. Just be sure to drive in good conditions only, and carefully! The rental companies are simply reducing their liability by saying that you're not "allowed" to drive on these roads. Every time we go, we take cars on this road, and aren't given any special permission by the rental car companies. We don't even tell them, they just get a car back covered in red dirt... :P

2. some people even take 2 wheel drive cars all the way up the mountain. But this is not recommended. First, your car will have a slow time getting there. Second, it is bad for the dirt road. but as I say, it has been done. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE when you drive down the mountain DOWNSHIFT into lower gear to slow down instead of braking no matter what kind of car you drive -- brakes overheat in the thinner air, and cars get into very bad accidents by going too fast downhill with poor braking! (they have a picture book at the visitor center of car accidents on the mountain if you ask them!)

3. then the more important question, do you want to go all the way up? There certainly are many cool telescopes and cool sights to see at the top, like sunset. You might be more comfortable going with a tour group, but this involves $$ and time. The visitor center halfway up the mountain is interesting (at the end of the paved road), but probably not worth the trip alone and you don't see telescopes from just there. Wear warm clothes if you go all the way up! The astronomers are always getting funny looks for bringing parkas at Hilo/Kona airport.

4. definitely, please take time to acclimate at the visitor center if you go. Altitude sickness/exhaustion affects *EVERYONE*, regardless of physical fitness or health. When we go to the mountain, we wait one night at the halfway point before going up to the top for the next night (because we are staying at the summit for several hours). At the summit, you will feel tired/winded doing just the simplest things, like walking around on flat ground! You say that you have one child in your group -- this may require special consideration. I believe there are warnings against taking kids up the mountain.
one of the tour companies has this warning: "People with respiratory, heart, and severe overweight conditions, pregnant women and children under 16 are advised not to go above the 9,200 ft. level where the visitor center is located. Do not go to the summit within 24 hours of scuba diving. "

see this page for reference: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/info/vis/ visitor center

well, that's all I have to advise. hope you find it useful.



[This message has been edited by TA (edited 10-17-2003).]

l etoile

slippahs wrote:
Ah, bad slippahs, upsetting Pele. I'm glad you fared better than her lovers though who are said to be trapped in odd shaped pieces of molten rock.

TA wrote:
If you read your contract, I think you'll find that they all state astronomers connected with an institution doing bona fide work at the observatories are permitted to take the rental vehicles to the summit. There are way too many astronomers coming and going for them to exclude this lucrative market. Generally I believe you have to show your credentials. Fascinating article in Outside perhaps a couple of years ago about the tremendous wait to get a slot at an observatory to collect your data; and if the weather stinks (which it usually doesn't) you just have to back to the multi-year wait to get up there again.

And yes, I've seen rangers out stopping people from continuing up in 2WDs during the day and in any type of vehicle after dark.

Yes, the rental agencies exclude places such as Saddle Road from the contract to make it perfectly clear it is YOU who will be footing the bill if their car breaks down there. Astronomers who present their credentials are covered.


[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 10-17-2003).]

TA

Well this is good to know. I've never read the fine print regarding this.

Observatories generally have semi-annual proposal reviews, when they read all science projects submitted and requesting time on the ir telescope. For most large observatories, there is an index called the "oversubscription factor" which calculates how much time was requested by all the proposers, versus how much time is actually available on the telescope. At large observatories like the ones on Mauna Kea, the factor is something like 2 to 5. For the Hubble space telescope, it is more like 7.

And yes, if weather takes a dump on us, we just have to propose again and wish the best. But weather on the mountain is very good usually.

bocastephen

I just finished my week trip to Hawaii, which included a night run along saddle road to the visitors center. A detailed story will be in the trip report when I get it finished and posted, but needless to say, my opinion is Saddle Rd is not a problem to drive...just be very careful and aware, especially if your driving skills are abit 'suspect' or you are unfamiliar with the handling nuances of your rental car. A 4wd vehicle is only required for a run to the summit...a good 6cyl 2wd car will be fine for the visitors center.

The only potential problems start happening along the access road because of the altitude and steep angle. My Sebring was doing 5000 rpm and 20mph on the way up to the visitors center...I didnt want to push it more than that (unless we started rolling backwards ). Personally, I would recommend taking a van tour if you want to visit the summit, although there is not much to see there other than the telescope buildings and the landscape (easier seen on the summit of Haleakala on Maui). If you just want to do the stargazing program (which I recommend), then with some good planning (and dress warmly!), you can make the drive in almost any car and have a great experience that will rank among the hi-lights of your trip.

luvs2fly

Would love to get the trip report on Hawaii, please email me or leave me your email address. I would like to ask you a few questions. Thanks

Lavarock7

You can start expecting snow there again soon too. Here is the camera up there: http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/cgi-bin/irtvid

They have the camera and temp so the astronomers can tell if the road is passable... THAT should tell you something

and the weather is at http://hokukea.soest.hawaii.edu/current/

I have photos somewhere showing the 6' drifts...

MileKing

Just back from our Hawaiian honeymoon. Did the drive to the visitor's center one night early last week. The star gazing program (6-10 PM each night) is excellent and I strongly disagree with whoever said it is not worth going unless you are going to the top. We had a regular 2WD rental car and didn't want to fork over $125+ to go the extra distance to the top. I'm glad we saved the $$ (makes for some very good dinners) as observing the stars from the visitor's center was one of the highlights of our trip and we did it all, Dolphin Quest, helicopter tour, volcano, snorkeling, kayaking, etc. The view, even from the visitor's center, cannot be described. Awesome would be an understatement.

As for the Saddle Road, well, it's better than half the roads in the DC area! I can't understand the issue with it. Yes, it is washboard on the edges, but you can drive the middle as most people seem to do and move over when other cars approach. There are few cars on the road and I found night driving easier than driving it in late afternoon. For one thing, it is easy to spot headlights of approaching cars. For another, the line running down the middle of the road is outfitted with good reflectors almost the entire length of the road from near Waimea to the observatory turn-off. If you drive cautiously and slow down in the one of two foggy areas you might hit, you will be fine.

A few notes. The folks running the star gazing program were University of Hawaii astronomy students. No clue if they are paid, but they did a decent job. The temperature at around 6:30 PM at the visitor's center was 48 degrees (F) and we were told that that was warm. It is usually much colder. No snow yet. Dress accordingly. The center is at 9200 ft. so some people may feel the effects of the altitude. We noted the thinner air, but that was it. As someone else pointed out, the center has coffee, hot chocolate, water, and a few foods (candy and such), but no real dinner foods. We purchased some turkey and cheese at the Waikoloa market and brought that with us for dinner.

[This message has been edited by MileKing (edited 10-27-2003).]