sdflyer04

I have noticed that Hawaiian has started to not release ANY frequent flyer seats on some more popular dates (other than first class seats for 80K) for west coast to the islands.

I've been buying tickets on Hawaiian and using frequent flyer miles on Hawaiian for approximately 15 years. Most of my flying is aT popular times (Thanksgiving, Spring Break, Christmas/New Year, Summer). For the first time ever, I wasn't able to book a single seat using miles for next Thanksgiving. I like HA. But, if they aren't going to release a single frequent flyer seat when I want to fly, then I will move my business to Alaska.

I can live with HA charging the highest miles per seat. But, to not release any seats (as they did not do this year for thanksgiving) makes other options much more attractive. I hope someone from HA reconsiders their practice.

sdflyer04

I gave up using miles for seats for Thanksgiving travel this year on Hawaiian and booked cash seats along with one mileage seat on Alaska. HA never released any seats, even at the highest mileage level.

Unfortunately, Hawaiian is at it again for Spring Break. I tried to book the day they released seats and none were released, even at the highest mileage level.

What is the purpose for having three levels of miles required to book a seat when the airline simply doesn't offer any seats (not one) at any level for the flights?

This is a big downside to continuing loyalty to Hawaiian. It is amazing how quickly Hawaiian changed from being a great airline for mileage usage to a terrible airline. For my purposes, the worst of all airlines because they simply don't offer any seats when I want to fly. Zero. I am slowly shifting my flying to Alaska and starting to appreciate their product. HA is losing someone who flies multiple times/year from the mainland, normally buys tickets using cash and miles, has helped countless family members and friends find their way to the islands on Hawaiian, has the credit card, etc. Seems like a dumb business move to alienate a good customer. Frustrating.

BOShappyflyer

Well, I have some Hawaiian miles for a while, but I never had enough to redeem for anything. So I resorted to redeeming them for intra island flights recently, which there were plenty of even when at a couple of weeks out. Worked out OK.

The best use of miles given that intra islands flights are usually pretty cheap? Probably not, but I'm just glad to be able to use them at all. Needless to say, I probably won't be trying to accrue miles with Hawaiian because it's hard to redeem for them...(at least for me).

formeraa

I hate to tell you, but I've only been able to use FF miles once during a holiday period to Hawaii on the mainland airlines. They usually block the seats during the holidays, maybe releasing a couple if you catch them at the right time. Seems like HA is doing what all the other carriers have done for years now!

Why give away seats if you can sell them at full price?

sdflyer04

The difference is that most mainland airlines still sell mileage seats during busy times--they just charge their highest mileage level. For example, I can get seats using mileage on virtually all of the mainland airlines for just about any day (holidays included) provided that I am willing to pay the highest number of miles for the flights. It may cost me 90K miles, but I can get a seat on the legacy carriers to Hawaii at Thanksgiving, Christmas/New Year, Spring Break, Summer, etc. I can choose whether it is worth it to pay that many miles.

Hawaiian Airlines is now different! They have three tiers for mileage seats for lowest, middle, and highest similar to many mainland carriers. BUT, they are now not releasing ANY seats using miles for many popular dates. I can't buy a mileage seat even at the highest mileage level. That is a game changer and a big difference from most other carriers, including their primary competition from the west coast, Alaska Airlines.

I hope they reconsider this recent practice as I think it will drive away customers like me who buy many tickets using cash and miles. If I can't ever use the miles when I want to fly, I have to include that fact in my calculation of the highest fare.

LETTERBOY

But how many customers are there like you? Are there enough of them to have a significant effect on HA's bottom line if they're driven away?

sdflyer04

Customers like me? You mean who travel from the mainland regularly and pay cash for tickets and then use those miles earned and HA credit card miles to buy an additional ticket here and there? I suppose that I could be a bit unique in that I have to fly at popular times that are school holidays. But, I am not sure that is particularly unique. And, I would think that HA would want to keep a regular customer who often pays the higher dollar costs for the popular dates and has invested in the HA credit card, recruited countless others to fly HA, etc.

Other than a one time or infrequent flyer, wouldn't most customers want to know whether they could use the miles they are earning? HA is now making it much more difficult to use their miles on many routes where competitors miles can be used easily. I'd think that fact will slowly become apparent to many of their customers and drive them to competitors. I would be surprised if HA didn't want to keep customers like me. But, I guess you could be right that they just don't care.

formeraa

Frankly, I wouldn't use 100K miles for a coach seat during the holidays Personally, if I were you, I would write a concise letter to customer service describing your concerns/suggestions.

LETTERBOY

Most travelers don't think like those of us on FT. We are very much an outlier.

If you look on the other forums, you will see the same complaints. People have the same complaints about every FF program, to some degree.

What happens when those customers go to competitors and find the grass isn't always greener?

If the cost of keeping a customer like you is giving away something they think they can sell, I don't think they'll lose too much sleep over you.

sdflyer04

Your suggestion to write a letter is a good one. I think that I will.

I'm not sure I'd pay 100K miles for a ticket (or the 90K miles that most airlines charge for peak travel days to Hawaii). But, my point is that Hawaiian Airlines isn't even giving me that option. I'd like to have that option. If I can only use miles on HA for offpeak travel times, then the miles are worth less to me because I primarily travel at busy times. And, the frustrating part is that HA has made seats available during busy times for many, many years.

There is a big difference between what HA is doing and what you see with other airlines. Virtually all of the complaints regarding other airlines are that they don't release mileage seats at the lowest level. What HA is doing is much worse. HA is not releasing ANY seats at ANY mileage level. That effectively makes HA much less competitive.

Yes, Flyertalkers are a unique breed. But, any airline should value repeat customers, particularly those who pay some of their top prices because they travel at peak times. Mileage availability is one of the ways airlines keep those repeat customers coming back. By removing availability, HA pushes us to competitors.

Sometimes we find that the competitors have some advantages that we kind of like. When HA stopped making mileage seats available, I started flying Alaska from the west coast to Hawaii. To my surprise, I found some things that I really liked. For example, I love the nonstop flights to all of the islands. I really like the newer Alaska seats. I like to work on my laptop or watch movies on it on the way to Hawaii. With the new Alaska seats, the person in front of me can recline all the way and it doesn't interfere with the use of my laptop. On Hawaiian, if the person in front of me reclines, I simply can't use my laptop the rest of the flight. I learned that Alaska flies to many more locations than just Hawaii where I also fly and I can use mileage to all of those places. For example, Alaska had a mileage seat sale requiring only 5K miles for some flights. I bought several tickets using just the roundtrip miles I earned to and from Hawaii on Alaska Airlines. I also learned that Alaska has a 20 minute baggage guarantee meaning that if your bag is not on the carousel within 20 minutes of landing (including for Hawaii flights), they give you some kind of voucher. I don't know what the voucher is because my bags have always been on the carousel within 20 minutes. That has been a complaint with Hawaiian for many years, particularly on return flights to the mainland that land late at night. It is not uncommon to wait another 45 minutes or more for a bag on HA.

Now this may sound like a commercial for Alaska. I don't mean it that way. I'm not totally sold on Alaska. I prefer HA's larger planes. I really like that they let me combine mileage from family members. I love the Aloha spirit on the planes and from the flight attendants, etc. I would have ignorantly continued to fly HA if they would have let me use mileage for a flight or two, even at the higher mileage level. Instead, their new policy sent me to a competitor and low and behold I found a bunch of things that I really like about their competitor. Now I look closely at both airlines when I am looking to buy tickets to Hawaii. In my book, that is a bad thing for HA and a good thing for Alaska. Because I really like HA and I've flown them for years, I care enough to come and post about them and I will likely send them a letter as well. I believe that there will be others who will just move on to the detriment of Hawaiian.

HNLbasedFlyer

Hawaiian considers themselves a leisure airline - so you won't get the perks like complimentary upgrades to First Class, Wifi, or award perks and other things you see at UA, Delta, AA, etc.

Look at this from the CEO

When you board a Hawaiian A330 it is immediately apparent that the carrier isn’t focusing on business travelers because there is no Wi-Fi — even on its long-haul routes.

Dunkerley argues that there is no viable over-the-ocean Wi-Fi product for now that would meet Hawaiian’s needs, and the airline’s leisure travel customer base isn’t demanding its introduction.

http://skift.com/2014/04/22/intervie...lary-revenues/

LETTERBOY

I never said they don't or shouldn't value repeat customers. Whether or not they do isn't the point. The point is what it would cost to keep you as a customer. If the cost to keep you as a customer is to give away for free what they think they could sell, it may not be worth the cost to keep you.

How many? Unless there are an awful lot of them, HA likely won't notice. As has been noted by HNLbasedFlyer, HA is primarily a leisure carrier. Leisure travelers (for the most part) are far more interested in price than anything else. In that regard, all HA has to do is keep their airfare prices competitive, and they'll do OK with or without you.

sdflyer04

I'm not following your or HNLbasedFlyer's point about leisure carrier. How does that impact the question of not making any mileage tickets available? If anything, I would think that leisure travelers might be more sensitive to the ability to use miles earned from flying.

I have no way of knowing how many current HA customers will be turned off enough by the lack of mileage seats to move on to other carriers. I do know that flyertalkers are a unique bunch. But, as I said above, unless we are talking about one time or very infrequent flyers, my expectation is that most people would factor in the potential use for the miles as part of the ticket cost calculation. And, I think this becomes more likely the longer and more frequently HA decides not to make mileage seats available. Just as an example, we are talking about this on this website, I've spoken with family and friends who have asked me about Hawaii travel recently (I'm known for better or worse as the guy to go to to talk about Hawaii travel in my office and among my family, neighbors, etc.) You may be right that this is drop in the bucket. But, I can't believe that I am the only who will cares about zero mileage seats being available for large periods of the year. I can't think of another airline that was or is this bad--and that is saying something.

I don't think I follow your point. I am a leisure traveler to Hawaii too. I still want to pay the lowest price and earn and use miles to make my effective cost lower. Wouldn't other leisure travelers make a similar calculation?

HNLbasedFlyer

My point is - leisure travelers typically rack up points in the same manner as business travelers. Therefore, being a leisure carrier - they don't find it a priority to offer all seats at a mileage redemption rate, because they probably think, so few of its flyers can afford super high redemption rates. And with planes full - they'd rather take your money - or someone else's money than see large mileage redemptions.

Again, the reason you don't see other airlines this bad as you put it is they aren't an airline that focuses on loyalty - hence reduced perks than other mainline carriers, not as good loyalty tiers as other airlines, etc - most of the flyers are casual once a year or a few times a year fliers - not high repeat flyers that often accrue miles for redemption.

sdflyer04

OK. I see your point now. I certainly agree that HA is a leisure airline. And, I agree that leisure airlines don't offer some of the same perks as business airlines such as wifi. However, I don't agree that this difference necessarily applies to the availability of mileage tickets. If HA's tickets were cheaper, then I think you could conclude that they were just lowering prices to get leisure travelers. But, HA's fares are not cheaper. In fact, they are often more expensive than legacy carriers and Alaska Airlines from the west coast. And, all of the legacy carriers and Alaska offer miles with their tickets and make seats available using miles on the same routes as Hawaiian.

In addition, Hawaiian offered very good availability using miles for tickets for the last 15 years or so. So, their "leisure" status didn't cause them to limit mileage seats for those years. I'm not sure what has changed in the last year or so. But, I am disappointed. As a frequent leisure traveler, I look for the most economical ticket including eventually being able to use miles that I've earned. I don't think I'm alone.