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-   -   Why do all the flights go to FRA? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/germany/799006-why-do-all-flights-go-fra.html)

hindukid Mar 7, 2008 4:18 pm

Why do all the flights go to FRA?
 
I don't know much about Germany but do know that the population of Frankfurt is not very large. I never understood why the vast majority of flights go there. Is it because LH wanted a central point where you could make connections and FRA was chosen as that point. Is it because there are other cities nearby making the metro area very big. Is Frankfurt just a much more important city then I thought. I would have definitely though Munich and Berlin would be ahead, but what do I know. Isn't hamburg bigger too?

Why does Berlin not have many more flights. I am not even sure if they have any to the US. Its the capital and a city of 4 million, right? Is it not that important to business because of its East German heritage.

soitgoes Mar 7, 2008 4:53 pm

One explanation is that Berlin is not a hub. Another reason is that the airports in Berlin are relatively small. The DDR past also likely has to something to do with it. Frankfurt is somewhat central and convenient. While Frankfurt's population may not be that high in comparison to other cities, there's a large population in the surrounding area.

Munich is also a big airport--not quite as much volume as FRA, but pretty close.

Berlin does have flights to the US--EWR and JFK come to mind.

silverkris168 Mar 7, 2008 5:04 pm

Several factors for FRA as a hub
 
Number one is its central location and connection to road and rail. There's a rail station right at the airport and it is astride a major motorway. This makes it pretty convenient to access several cities in the Rhine valley such as Cologne and Bonn, which until recently was the German Federal Republic's capital. Frankfurt am Main isn't actually all that large a city by German standards but it is Germany's finance center (nickname is "Bankfurt").

Yes, Berlin is larger but its postwar political status really didn't make it a hub for air travel. In fact, for the most part airlines like the late Pan Am (and not LH) controlled most of the flights out of Berlin, similiar to how the US, British and French controlled the West Berlin sectors. In time Berlin may see more direct international traffic as Berlin settles into its new role as the restored capital city of Germany, but given 1) FRA's well established status as a hub and 2) need for expansion at Berlin's airports to handle additional traffic it's probably unlikely in the short to medium term that LH and other airlines will switch its hub flights from FRA to Berlin. Plus, MUC has room for expansion.

YVR Cockroach Mar 7, 2008 5:04 pm

Frankfurt am Main is the major financial and business centre of Germany with just about all the German banks, as well as the European Central Bank (successor in essence to the Deutsche Bundesbank), and the surrounding region also contains most of Germany's industrial base. Not sure if this was the case pre-WWII or not. As mentioned by others, Munich is also important and so is Dusseldorf in the north but nothing beats Frankfurt. Financially it is very similar to why London is a hub for the U.K.

soitgoes Mar 7, 2008 5:29 pm


Originally Posted by silverkris168 (Post 9375093)
Frankfurt am Main isn't actually all that large a city by German standards but it is Germany's finance center (nickname is "Bankfurt").

Actually, by German standards it's pretty big (#5), but by international standards it's fairly small.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...00_inhabitants
And note on the map on the Wikipedia page where there are and aren't red dots indicating cities with at least 100K residents. Yeah, Berlin is a big city, but Brandenburg is pretty sparsely populated.


Originally Posted by silverkris168 (Post 9375093)
Yes, Berlin is larger but its postwar political status really didn't make it a hub for air travel. In fact, for the most part airlines like the late Pan Am (and not LH) controlled most of the flights out of Berlin, similiar to how the US, British and French controlled the West Berlin sectors.

Indeed. I think the only airlines allowed to fly to West Berlin were US, French, or UK airlines. PanAm sold its intra-Germany routes to Lufthansa around the time of reunification.

mosburger Mar 7, 2008 8:33 pm

Berlin is a capital without industry and banking and has attracted only a few corporate HQs. The federal structure of Germany and the fact that many government officials remain in Bonn are other factors that reduce the importance of direct longhaul routes to Berlin.

Even with the new airport I would expect not much change as traffic flows are already quite established in Europe. Maybe there will be an influx of LCCs and holiday charter carriers but I wouldn't expect too many new longhaul connections to materialize.

And if FRA and MUC should become overcrowded, there are many alternative hubs for German pax to choose apart from Berlin. AMS, CDG, CPH, HEL, LHR, VIE, ZRH...

szg Mar 8, 2008 4:56 am


Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach (Post 9375094)
Frankfurt am Main is the major financial and business centre of Germany with just about all the German banks, as well as the European Central Bank (successor in essence to the Deutsche Bundesbank), and the surrounding region also contains most of Germany's industrial base. Not sure if this was the case pre-WWII or not. As mentioned by others, Munich is also important and so is Dusseldorf in the north but nothing beats Frankfurt. Financially it is very similar to why London is a hub for the U.K.

The reason is of course about the major financial city and the central location. Also LH is based at FRA and LH is doing a lot of maintenance work for other carriers there.

Flying Lawyer Mar 8, 2008 7:10 am


Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach (Post 9375094)
Frankfurt am Main is the major financial and business centre of Germany with just about all the German banks, as well as the European Central Bank (successor in essence to the Deutsche Bundesbank), and the surrounding region also contains most of Germany's industrial base. Not sure if this was the case pre-WWII or not. As mentioned by others, Munich is also important and so is Dusseldorf in the north but nothing beats Frankfurt. Financially it is very similar to why London is a hub for the U.K.

Everything is true but the induestrial base in Frankfurt. The industrial heart of the country is certainly within the triangle formed by the airports of Cologne, Dusseldorf and Dortmund with a population of close to 20 Mio people. The financial heart is Frankfurt, the heart of Siemens, BMW and entertainment industry is Munich. However, Berlin is nothing but government and this does not require an aweful lot of direct international flights.

And Frankfurt is certainly located very centrally with direct raillinks to most of the country. an airport that is very accessible on the crossway of national autobahns and railway tracks and with 24/7 airtraffic.

flyingfkb Mar 8, 2008 1:06 pm

Until the 80ties Munich was a provincial town. Only big companies were Siemens and BMW. It was not until the 90ties the Bavarian government had the plan to attract high-tech and finance companies to the Munich area. Together with the new airport, the growth limitations of the Frankfurt airport and the growth of the economy around Munich, it became attractive for LH to open their second hub in Munich.

Frankfurt airport was also important as it was half an US military base and half a civil airport. The majority of US service men and women arrived through Frankfurt.

Thomas_B Mar 8, 2008 1:25 pm


Originally Posted by caspritz78 (Post 9378571)
Until the 80ties Munich was a provincial town.

Not quite sure how this fits with the following numbers:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einwohn...n_M%C3%BCnchen

Flying Lawyer Mar 8, 2008 2:07 pm


Not quite sure how this fits with the following numbers:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einwohn...n_M%C3%BCnchen
Munich was a big provincial town

oliver2002 Mar 8, 2008 2:45 pm

Pan Am(PA), DL and the Americans forces put down the foundation of FRA into what it is today. Before WWII Berlin was the hub for LH, but with the division of Germany and Berlin LH was not allowed to operate out of Berlin. AF, BA and PA dominated western traffic in and out of Berlin (PA operated 650 flights out of TXL a week) and PA built its intercont operations in FRA with TATL flights continuing on to the Middle East and India, onwards to the Far East.

After the cold war and imminent demise PA cashed out sold its pacific operations to UA and the TATL to DL. LH took over their German operations and some of the intercont routes.

Given the convienient location and existing infrastructure, FRA beat the Berlin airports and MUC/DUS in the post cold war growth. MUC could have given FRA a run for its money if the move from Riem to its current site was not delayed by 10 years due to local resistance.

SXF with its SU and IF operations was never a candidate as it was tiny.

flyingfkb Mar 9, 2008 10:57 am


Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer (Post 9378816)
Munich was a big provincial town

Exactly! And still the biggest High-Tech-Village in the World :D.

tom tulpe Mar 10, 2008 8:57 am


Originally Posted by oliver2002 (Post 9378984)
SXF with its SU and IF operations was never a candidate as it was tiny.

...and on the wrong side of the iron curtain, too.

Tom :-)

oliver2002 Mar 10, 2008 11:17 am


Originally Posted by tom tulpe (Post 9386142)
...and on the wrong side of the iron curtain, too.

I meant after unification SXF was never an option as it was/is tiny.


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