Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Destinations > Europe > Germany
Reload this Page >

Munich Oktoberfest Questions

Community
Wiki Posts
Search

Munich Oktoberfest Questions

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Aug 25, 2019, 2:35 am
  #46  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 31,452
Originally Posted by TravelTheWorld66


Awesome! Where are you guys traveling from?

Also, if you get into a tent early (10am) on a Saturday, do they give you anything that would allow you to return later in the night if you don’t want to stay in the tent all day? (i.e. wristband, ticket stub, etc.)
No, unless you have reserved a table, it’s essentially first-come, first-served. Putting a towel on the sun lounger doesn’t work at the Wiesn.
linglingfool likes this.
LondonElite is offline  
Old Aug 25, 2019, 3:21 am
  #47  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by TravelTheWorld66


Awesome! Where are you guys traveling from?

Also, if you get into a tent early (10am) on a Saturday, do they give you anything that would allow you to return later in the night if you don’t want to stay in the tent all day? (i.e. wristband, ticket stub, etc.)
So I am flying in with at least one from Boston, another guy from DC, and another from NC and another from NYC and one more from Houston. One more may come from Montreal--he is from VT. Likely most of us on LH.


Getting into and staying in tents:
So there are a few dynamics to keep in mind. If you are in a big group then some rent a table. I have never done it but if I see Oliver the MOD I will buy him a beer or three. We are not doing that this year despite our number of guys (5-6 at a time) because we know we will get there early and likely leave tents by mid day. Last year my one buddy and I stayed in the tent from noon to 7 but I do not recall what happened to me after that. lol. I know I woke up in my hotel.

If we stay past like 3-4pm then we have to employ this method we heard from zee Germans when I once asked a group of them how they lasted all day: "You drink zee first one und zee last one! Zat is how you stay here all day--hahaha!!"

If you leave then no, you cannot get anything to ensure you will get back to that table of people you were at, however if you are outgoing and friendly and memorable, if the others at your table are still there when you return, they may let you back on it, unless it filled in with more cool people which it likely will. We have done this however, when in a small group of say 2=3 people so it is possible.

But IMO, the way to stay is to get there early and stay, and pace your drinking, which is hard. Then leave when you know to pull yourself from it before falling apart. Or get lucky that if you leave and come back your table still lets you back in, or reserve one, which is hard to do now, unless you find a group that has a spot. We like to get there early so we can then see and do other things and somewhat sober up for the next day. If you do want to come at night you may get lucky (I recall once walking in with a friend and we found a whole empty table at 5pm in the hoffbrau on a fri night. Never happens. We grabbed it and it filled up with friendly revelers from all over zee world in minutes.

You can also go to the Oide Wiesn and likely find seats if you have a smaller group.

Note that for music, you will hear the classic German "oompah" stuff from about noon to about 5-6 in most tents. Then after that it switches to those same bands playing fun songs like John Denver's Country Road, Don't Stop Believing by Journey, and the like. It's a trip to hear these tunes played by this type of band and they are good, and the whole place gets into it, but the whole din changes and you need to be in high party mode by then to really get into it so yah, get there early and stay all day! That table we had left and came back to...'twas a bunch of American and Aussie girls who were planning to open and close the place for a bachelorette party. They pulled it off.

Time:
why drink early in the day as opposed to nacht? Well, for one, if you are flying in from the States, then you may be jetlagged and all messed up anyway. I bring those mini energy drinks and suffer one down and then yah I am ready. If you head to the tents in the morning of your first day, you will essentially plow through it and acclimate by attrition. By the time you leave the tent and pass out in your hotel, you will now awake on German time... At least I have. Next day you are fine.

Time is in a bubble there. Once in the tent it's like a casino. You cannot really tell what time it is, what day it is or what the weather is like outside (ps if it is bad weather, get there early because there's nothing else to do in Munich when it rains and is ugly outside so everyone else will go too. (After all, if it rains, then the weather is so pissy gray and depressing, and some say the region has been good only for two passtimes: war and beer, and fortunately we live in an era where the latter is prevailing). Point is, it doesn't matter what time it is... go have beers! You will get into the spirit regardless! It's like jumping in the ocean after a long flight to the Caribbean. Soon you are on island time! Let your lovin flow!

Last edited by Marathon Man; Aug 25, 2019 at 6:12 am Reason: time
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Aug 25, 2019, 10:35 pm
  #48  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Programs: UA 1K, DL Gold, IHG Diamond AMB, MR Gold, HH Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, National EE
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Marathon Man
So I am flying in with at least one from Boston, another guy from DC, and another from NC and another from NYC and one more from Houston. One more may come from Montreal--he is from VT. Likely most of us on LH.


Getting into and staying in tents:
So there are a few dynamics to keep in mind. If you are in a big group then some rent a table. I have never done it but if I see Oliver the MOD I will buy him a beer or three. We are not doing that this year despite our number of guys (5-6 at a time) because we know we will get there early and likely leave tents by mid day. Last year my one buddy and I stayed in the tent from noon to 7 but I do not recall what happened to me after that. lol. I know I woke up in my hotel.

If we stay past like 3-4pm then we have to employ this method we heard from zee Germans when I once asked a group of them how they lasted all day: "You drink zee first one und zee last one! Zat is how you stay here all day--hahaha!!"

If you leave then no, you cannot get anything to ensure you will get back to that table of people you were at, however if you are outgoing and friendly and memorable, if the others at your table are still there when you return, they may let you back on it, unless it filled in with more cool people which it likely will. We have done this however, when in a small group of say 2=3 people so it is possible.

But IMO, the way to stay is to get there early and stay, and pace your drinking, which is hard. Then leave when you know to pull yourself from it before falling apart. Or get lucky that if you leave and come back your table still lets you back in, or reserve one, which is hard to do now, unless you find a group that has a spot. We like to get there early so we can then see and do other things and somewhat sober up for the next day. If you do want to come at night you may get lucky (I recall once walking in with a friend and we found a whole empty table at 5pm in the hoffbrau on a fri night. Never happens. We grabbed it and it filled up with friendly revelers from all over zee world in minutes.

You can also go to the Oide Wiesn and likely find seats if you have a smaller group.

Note that for music, you will hear the classic German "oompah" stuff from about noon to about 5-6 in most tents. Then after that it switches to those same bands playing fun songs like John Denver's Country Road, Don't Stop Believing by Journey, and the like. It's a trip to hear these tunes played by this type of band and they are good, and the whole place gets into it, but the whole din changes and you need to be in high party mode by then to really get into it so yah, get there early and stay all day! That table we had left and came back to...'twas a bunch of American and Aussie girls who were planning to open and close the place for a bachelorette party. They pulled it off.

Time:
why drink early in the day as opposed to nacht? Well, for one, if you are flying in from the States, then you may be jetlagged and all messed up anyway. I bring those mini energy drinks and suffer one down and then yah I am ready. If you head to the tents in the morning of your first day, you will essentially plow through it and acclimate by attrition. By the time you leave the tent and pass out in your hotel, you will now awake on German time... At least I have. Next day you are fine.

Time is in a bubble there. Once in the tent it's like a casino. You cannot really tell what time it is, what day it is or what the weather is like outside (ps if it is bad weather, get there early because there's nothing else to do in Munich when it rains and is ugly outside so everyone else will go too. (After all, if it rains, then the weather is so pissy gray and depressing, and some say the region has been good only for two passtimes: war and beer, and fortunately we live in an era where the latter is prevailing). Point is, it doesn't matter what time it is... go have beers! You will get into the spirit regardless! It's like jumping in the ocean after a long flight to the Caribbean. Soon you are on island time! Let your lovin flow!
No way! I’m also traveling from BOS; I’m on the nonstop Lufthansa flight to MUC on 9/25!

I went last year on a whim and was not prepared at all. I showed up expecting to walk right into a tent on Saturday night. Obviously that didn’t work out too well. I stood near one of the entrances in a crowd of people for nearly 2 hours until one of the hostesses let me into the beer garden, probably because she felt sorry for me. I got chatting with a group from Spain (in Spanish which helped), and they knew someone with a table inside, and they invited me in with them! I don’t remember much after that!

Anyways, if you do decide to get a table anywhere and you need an extra person, let me know!
TravelTheWorld66 is offline  
Old Aug 26, 2019, 1:56 am
  #49  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by TravelTheWorld66


No way! I’m also traveling from BOS; I’m on the nonstop Lufthansa flight to MUC on 9/25!

I went last year on a whim and was not prepared at all. I showed up expecting to walk right into a tent on Saturday night. Obviously that didn’t work out too well. I stood near one of the entrances in a crowd of people for nearly 2 hours until one of the hostesses let me into the beer garden, probably because she felt sorry for me. I got chatting with a group from Spain (in Spanish which helped), and they knew someone with a table inside, and they invited me in with them! I don’t remember much after that!

Anyways, if you do decide to get a table anywhere and you need an extra person, let me know!
cool! Well when we are there and you are there, let us attempt to connect in here. I do suggest a few things however...

1) That before we go, you PM me with your cell/text and let me know here you have done so so I see it. Often on my phone and for some reason, things do not always register. So I wont know to look.
2) that if we use cell/text, we text over calling because you cannot hear in busy crowded loud drunk fumbling Munich.
3) that you remain flexible as things and plans change on a whim. Best to go with the "let's try it and see" method.
4) cell batteries die so communicate early and often and no party should get offended if the other fails to reply right away cuz people lose phones or things die or all that.

As in the past, once people stumble to hotels they often charge devices and can check emails or whatever if able, but it is harder to do that when raising glasses with a buncha drunk Assies, etc.
I can tell you that on a day like Saturday or Sunday, if we do the tents we would likely get in there early not at night. Then again, if we do something else in the day (like head to THIS PLACE again, as I have done in the past with different groups of friends who have come in different years, then we might do the OW at night, as suggested above.

Hardest thing to do is to link up with people you plan to meet. It seems either the group--however large or small--travels as a bubble within the moving fabric of the membrane as one, or it fragments and you never see each other. Seems easy but never ever is. It's kinda like when you want to meet a friend skiing and one of you is already on the mountain. Unless one party literally stops and waits, the odds are one of you will remain a half run ahead or behind the other all day. And it is hard to do when you have like 5 people who do not want to stop and wait. This dynamic just happened to me and a friend when we all realized we were in NYC together. My 11 year old son and I were in the 9/11 museum and a friend and his kids were in there too, so we found out with texting, and we never could meet. It is a large venue. So my son and I had low power on both our phones and when we left we went to an Apple store nearby. We texted the guy saying we will wait outside for when he comes out with his family. I had wanted a small hand held power charger for a while (and in fact, for this upcoming Munich trip) so I bought one there and we now had juice. We texted with our friends and waited in the Apple store until they emerged from the nearby museum. The Apple store also provided a perfect place for my son to check out cool stuff and we both got to charge our phones while waiting there 15 minutes. We all linked up and it was fun cuz their kids are friends with him. The point of this is that in order to meet with friends, you cannot always just rely on conventional things, especially when drinking, which we will all be doing in Germany (no my son is not going lol). Even a new iPhone XR will eventually drain battery and then you find yourself saying "Screw it! 'Ave another, mate!" and you drink and do not care. Meanwhile the person wanting to meet you is like, where is he? why doesn't he answer? What a jerk? When in fact this may not be the intent, but beer and communication get messy. In the past--a buncha years back, we "Murkins didn't even have the ability to use our phones outside of hotels for anything except where there was WIFI unless we had phones issued by a company we worked at that paid the bill for that level of service. So the only way to communicate was essentially before you left your hotel. Now we do and obviously I set up the travel pass, but still, trying to reach people and be reached is a challenge.

So I will try to meetcha and it would be fun cuz we both in FT, but we gotta be prepared and let luck and fate and the will of the godz take over. That, and some ability to plan a tiny bit. The concept/mindset being: We text, we find out we is both around the same place at the same time, I holler to my group that this bloke from FT is gonna meet us, we end up somewhere, you end up there, we fumble to figure out where you are in relation to the table we sussed out, you meet us, we talk about travel and drinking, one of us spills beer on some Norwegian girl, we snort Oktoberfest coke off her chest, we high five, and everybody wins (the thing with the girl has happened before--pretty common there)
Our group cannot yet say where it will find itself on any particular day or night. I can say that as we speak, all those coming in on the 25th want to head right to the tents that day and be there from around noon til like 4-5. And then at least a few of us want to train to Salzburg either on the Thurs or Fri, Haven't yet figured out the day or bought train tix. Then another bloke is flying in either Sat am or Fri am. He currently has Sat am arrival all set but wants to change his flight come in a day early if he can, and two others still have yet to commit to coming, where as four of us are set but at least one of those guys wants to also do THIS PLACE for one day, and THIS PLACE for another, whereas some of us have done both and do not need to go again. With limited time available I suggested they just do one thing and come back every year but you know how it goes.

incidentally, for our Salzburg plans, I am using THIS LINK.

Last edited by Marathon Man; Aug 26, 2019 at 2:11 am
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Aug 26, 2019, 2:09 am
  #50  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 31,452
Wow, how complicated! I normally just say 'meet me outside the main entrance to Käfer at 3pm' and it works out fine.
LondonElite is offline  
Old Aug 26, 2019, 2:35 am
  #51  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by LondonElite
Wow, how complicated! I normally just say 'meet me outside the main entrance to Käfer at 3pm' and it works out fine.
You see, you are correct. It SHOULD work that way. And if this were a sober business meet up it absolutely would. I am never late for work things.

But in the Munich beer world it is quite different, at least in my experience. So I am just Expanding upon the small nuances that travel through all of our minds when trying to meet people in busy places where there’s drinking involved and plans change quickly.

I want to meet people and can and will, but chance usually wins the day there. I can tell you this: I will be at the Le Meridien Munich and we hope to check in or at least drop our bags by about 11 on the 25th and likely head directly to Hoffbrau House tent. I will try to get us near the band in a section I have thought to be strategic to both getting refills easily and with proximity to the toilets and ease of exit. We will order food and eventually leave the tent between 1600-1800.

But consider this:
What happens if my group of five guys is amped up and rushing to get into a tent like the above scenario I have jazzed them all up for and then one of us says we need to stop and wait for someone who may or may not show up on time and he is someone we do not yet know? Have you ever been in this situation when all the mates really want to do is drink beer and not be in business mode for a change?

I find that a lot of times plans get messed up a little things you cannot anticipate. Why, just now, I was typing on my computer here at 04:15 in the morning my time and then its modem reset it suddenly whatever I was typing disappeared and I had to start over. Who knew! If that kind of thing happened to a text or email or ft thread I was trying to type in when also holding my second litre of beer, do you think I would have stuck with it? Lol

on a side note, this totally unrelated thing is really cool

Last edited by Marathon Man; Aug 26, 2019 at 2:41 am
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Aug 26, 2019, 4:57 am
  #52  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by TravelTheWorld66


No way! I’m also traveling from BOS; I’m on the nonstop Lufthansa flight to MUC on 9/25!

I went last year on a whim and was not prepared at all. I showed up expecting to walk right into a tent on Saturday night. Obviously that didn’t work out too well. I stood near one of the entrances in a crowd of people for nearly 2 hours until one of the hostesses let me into the beer garden, probably because she felt sorry for me. I got chatting with a group from Spain (in Spanish which helped), and they knew someone with a table inside, and they invited me in with them! I don’t remember much after that!

Anyways, if you do decide to get a table anywhere and you need an extra person, let me know!
Are you leaving bos 9/25 or are you leaving bos 9/24 and arriving munich 9/25? If the second one, then we are on the same flight and that solves all of this lol
we could just meet at Logan! So far there’s three of us on that plane. Trying to do just one rolling carryon if able.
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Aug 27, 2019, 10:10 pm
  #53  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Programs: UA 1K, DL Gold, IHG Diamond AMB, MR Gold, HH Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, National EE
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Marathon Man


Are you leaving bos 9/25 or are you leaving bos 9/24 and arriving munich 9/25? If the second one, then we are on the same flight and that solves all of this lol
we could just meet at Logan! So far there’s three of us on that plane. Trying to do just one rolling carryon if able.
Leaving 9/25, arrive 9/26. Let’s say this...I’ll probably be at Wiesn for some part of the day on Thurs/Fri/Sat. If you have an extra seat at a table, shoot me a text. I’ll DM you my number. I’m flexible. Also, not sure if you’re a Pats fan, but I usually watch the game on Sunday with a big group of German locals who have organized a Pats fan group of sorts, if you’re interested.
TravelTheWorld66 is offline  
Old Aug 28, 2019, 5:44 am
  #54  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by TravelTheWorld66


Leaving 9/25, arrive 9/26. Let’s say this...I’ll probably be at Wiesn for some part of the day on Thurs/Fri/Sat. If you have an extra seat at a table, shoot me a text. I’ll DM you my number. I’m flexible. Also, not sure if you’re a Pats fan, but I usually watch the game on Sunday with a big group of German locals who have organized a Pats fan group of sorts, if you’re interested.
awesome
I will plan to text you plans on those days. I got your message and now we have each other’s cells. Thanks. Much easier than trying to connect to this when on the move IMO.

On our first day we are in the tents early. On the Thursday we currently have planned to head to Salzburg by train but have just been thinking of buying the train tix for that when we get to Munich as the LeMeridien is just across the st from HBF. Friday two guys wanna do eagles nest but I have been and so I am staying in Munich with one other and another bloke is slated to arrive. We will likely tent early again. Like 10-4? Saturday another bloke shows up and we will tent again early. At least one guy wants to head to Dacau but i have been. I could consider the train ride to Germanys highest peak again but likely want to stay in tents. Sunday who knows. Pats gig sounds cool, thanks. A few of us are indeed Pats fans and would also like to meet German locals but who knows the plans. Monday we head to Stuttgart by train.

like with many things, many of the above plans could change
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Aug 28, 2019, 12:24 pm
  #55  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: ORD
Programs: AA PLT
Posts: 2,781
Originally Posted by Marathon Man

On our first day we are in the tents early. On the Thursday we currently have planned to head to Salzburg by train but have just been thinking of buying the train tix for that when we get to Munich as the LeMeridien is just across the st from HBF. Friday two guys wanna do eagles nest but I have been and so I am staying in Munich with one other and another bloke is slated to arrive. We will likely tent early again. Like 10-4? Saturday another bloke shows up and we will tent again early. At least one guy wants to head to Dacau but i have been. I could consider the train ride to Germanys highest peak again but likely want to stay in tents. Sunday who knows. Pats gig sounds cool, thanks. A few of us are indeed Pats fans and would also like to meet German locals but who knows the plans. Monday we head to Stuttgart by train.
Sounds like you guys are the perfect candidate for the DB Bayern Ticket. €25 for the first passenger, €7 for each additional person (up to a total of 5 people) will let you travel virtually anywhere in Bavaria for the day, including to "border" stations, of which Salzburg is one. You can only use local public transportation and regional trains (no IC/ICE/RJ), but it's a great value for a group of 3-5.

Last edited by linglingfool; Aug 28, 2019 at 12:33 pm
linglingfool is offline  
Old Aug 28, 2019, 4:10 pm
  #56  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by linglingfool
Sounds like you guys are the perfect candidate for the DB Bayern Ticket. €25 for the first passenger, €7 for each additional person (up to a total of 5 people) will let you travel virtually anywhere in Bavaria for the day, including to "border" stations, of which Salzburg is one. You can only use local public transportation and regional trains (no IC/ICE/RJ), but it's a great value for a group of 3-5.
Thanks!
Will look into that!
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Sep 23, 2019, 5:48 am
  #57  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Programs: Miles&More Blue, SPG Silver
Posts: 3,376
Small Wiesn-Update. Weather turned not so nice today. The week will be a mix of rain and sun with temperatures in the mid 50s. Meaning the outside areas of the tents can not be used due to the rain. So tents might be fuller than normally and you should be there around noon. Went on sunday at 1pm and it was okay but by 4pm some tents where already closed due to max. capacity. Enjoy your Wiesn-Visit. I also can recommend the official Wiesn-App with a live capacity meter: https://www.oktoberfest.de/en/inform...ktoberfest-app
flyingfkb is offline  
Old Sep 23, 2019, 5:58 am
  #58  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Originally Posted by flyingfkb
Small Wiesn-Update. Weather turned not so nice today. The week will be a mix of rain and sun with temperatures in the mid 50s. Meaning the outside areas of the tents can not be used due to the rain. So tents might be fuller than normally and you should be there around noon. Went on sunday at 1pm and it was okay but by 4pm some tents where already closed due to max. capacity. Enjoy your Wiesn-Visit. I also can recommend the official Wiesn-App with a live capacity meter: https://www.oktoberfest.de/en/inform...ktoberfest-app
Thanks for this!
yah my gang and I arrive Wed am and my plan has always been to drop bags in hotel and get to the tents asap. Likely in by noon.

We will have 5 blokes the first day and 6 the next and then a 7th after that. If any here wanna meet up we can pm but in the end cell texting is best cuz fumbling w logins and all that can blow. I have one guy’s number and it’s always fun to meet other FTers. Then again it’s hard to meet folks ar Oktoberfest cuz it’s like trying to wait for friends at a busy ski lift on a powder day. Not done.
Marathon Man is offline  
Old Sep 27, 2019, 2:48 am
  #59  
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,600
We went on Wednesday and it was great (including the weather). Arrived about 11:30am and had no issues getting seats. Did 4 tents in total - finding some seats in the Augustina tent at about 15:30 and then staying there until about 19:30.

Great day out... although my wife was written off for the whole of yesterday.
flyingfkb likes this.
DYKWIA is online now  
Old Oct 1, 2019, 1:19 pm
  #60  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DAY
Programs: UA 1K 1MM; Marriott LT Titanium; Amex MR; Chase UR; Hertz PC; Global Entry
Posts: 10,157
Opening weekend was great. Perfect weather for both Saturday and Sunday. Spent most of Sunday in the Braurosl tent. Great fun.

Monday turned rainy, but not downpours, so easy to get around.

Safe travels to all still partying in Munich....
goodeats21 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.