The issue of ICE trains did not come up because, I suspect, few of the posters here are familiar with German trains. If the OP buys tickets early enough, he can get Sparpreis tickets, including the ICE, which are bound to a specific train. However, there are also Länder-Tickets, Schönes-Wochenende-Ticket and Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket, all of which offer discounts.

I travel often on German trains and have found that the regular service trains (non-high speed) are frequently more convenient than the ICE (and often, not so much slower either).

I should also point out that I was responding specifically to the poster who claimed that a rental auto could cost less than train transport.

You do realize just because public transport being more efficiently doesn't mean the "savings" is being passed back to the passenger?

You should do the math before claiming that car rental can't be cheaper than the train. It's a matter of fixed vs. variable costs. At some point, the car hire will be cheaper than train transport.

The cost of car hire plus fuel is fixed up to the vehicle's passenger capacity whereas cost of the train is variable (by passenger).

And you are changing the subject by stating public transport (as opposed to train) since public transport can contain other forms of transportation such as bus and aircraft. If trains are as cheap as you claim it to be, why are tour groups throwing money away by using buses instead of the train?

And it can be cheaper under certain scenarios. One can easily determine the actual cost just by going to the car rental site and pricing the cost of car hire and comparing it to bahn.com.

All the discounts you provided are not valid on ICE. If you exclude ICE, then you shouldn't be bashing about traffic associated with driving. DUS to FRA is 2.25 hours by car on a good day/time. Regional trains will take you at least 3 hours between the two cities and that's excluding the time to get to/from the Hbf.

As indicated earlier, first hand experience is that diesel from DUS to FRA is about $35USD and I was driving a 5-series doing 200km/h about a quarter of the way. I paid 130EUR for a 1-day rental. Total with petro is about 170EUR. The 5 series could have carried maximum of 5 passengers. Train is about 45 EUR (restrictive discount) to 80 EUR per person. Five passenger fare is about 225EUR (restrictive) to 400EUR.

A Hyundai i10, 79EUR one-way rental from Hertz. I'm pretty sure it is less thirsty than a 5-series. Let's say $5 USD in fuel savings. That's about 102EUR total. Break-even is around 3 passengers (restrictive train ticket).

If OP wanted to get on a train to FRA right after landing at DUS, discount tickets could be a problem if an unexpected issue occurs (flight delay/lost bag etc) since you lose the value of the ticket if it is not used on the reserved train. This leaves OP with two options. Buy a walk up fare which makes car rental financially attractive than the train OR buy a discount fare (in advance) and leave a enough gap between flight arrival and train departure. Depending on how much OP values his time, this also makes car rental financially attractive.

I have nothing against trains. I much prefer ICE trains in Germany due to their punctuality and speed. However, between DUS and FRA, I don't find their non-restrictive pricing attractive at all especially if you need to get on a train right after flight arrival which is what OP is suggesting (ICE 80EUR vs Hyundai i10 102EUR with fuel). Now if OP indicated he will spend some time in DUS before travelling to FRA, then buying a discounted ticket for one passenger then it would be as fractional of a cost than car rental as you had indicated.

Having said that, if I were in DUS and needed to catch a flight at FRA, I would take ICE instead of driving since I know I can buy the discounted ticket without fear of it losing value.

If you stay on the West side of the Rhine you can visit the "world's largest free-hanging cuckoo clock" :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP_0IIU-ac4

and, while you're there, there's a splendid restaurant just up the hill in the Burg Rheinfels with smashing views of the river.

http://sr47.de/t/pics/8259ddad92.jpg

Then why are the prices lower?

I've done the math. The problem with your statements is that, while you seem to be well familiar with autos, you don't seem to be at all familiar with trains and how they work (at least in Europe) and that is why you keep assuming that filling a car with people will always be lower cost than a train ticket. Well, I'm sorry to say it like that, but you are wrong.

No, the cost of a train is either fixed or variable depending on what type of ticket you buy.Tour buses, especially long-distance ones in Europe, are almost always run by private companies. I assume, since they are run by profit-making companies, they just pass the cost of the transport on to the customer. Secondly, these tours (from what I have seen, I have never been on one) use a group control system to keep the tourists and the guides together. Easier on a private bus than a train.Here is where your lack of knowledge about the German train system (plus your pro-auto bias) leads you to the wrong conclusion.

First, you say that driving between the two cities ("on a good day/time") is 2.25 hours. Does that include the time to go to the auto rental location? Does it include the time to drive from the rental location to the high-speed motorway? Does it include the time at the other end to get to the auto drop-off point? Does it include the time to get from there to your hotel?

Yes, you need to get from your hotel to the train station (and vice versa at the other end), however, if you do a bit of planning, the chances are excellent you can find a good hotel within walking distance of the train station. Such as the Nikko Hotel in Duesseldorf.

Secondly, there are no "on a good day/time" on trains. Trains run quite often and tickets are always available.

OK, now let's look at costs: your auto cost was €170. (Did you also need to take transport to or from the auto locations?) Either way, let's use your point that five people could share the cost of the auto. That comes out to €34 per person.

I see you're from New York. Assuming you want to fly to Duesseldorf on 11 July, do you go to the airport on 11 July, walk up to an airline counter and say "I'd like one ticket to Duesseldorf for today, please"?

It works pretty much the same with trains: show up at the station and ask for a ticket for today and, yes, you'll pay the highest cost.

But, if you knew that, you'd book your ticket well ahead of your travel date. In fact, using the homeprint option or the post option, you could even get your ticket at home before leaving for Germany. Did you know that?

IAC, looking at the schedule, I see an ICE train running direct from Duesseldorf to Frankfurt (leaving at 09:33) that takes 1:19 (about an hour faster than your car excluding the pick-up and drop-off) and costs €29 (Sparpreis). No coupons or loyalty cards needed.

How much is that for five people? €29 times 5 equals €145, so, in fact, cheaper than your auto. However, since you apparently drove by yourself in your example, that would be €29 vs. €170. As I had said, a fraction of the cost.

Secondly, I would imagine that for the three people in the back seat of the auto, it would not be very comfortable. On the train, each would have a full-size seat with plenty of leg-room.

And finally, wouldn't an auto with five people use more fuel than an auto with one?


You seem to be very happy to mention problems with flights, but not so often with autos. So, let me help with that: the German road system, while well-designed for travel, is frequently filled to overflowing with autos - and I say that from personal experience. Secondly, roadworks (maintenance) is most often done in the summer when traffic is also heaviest. Then there are road accidents (not at all uncommon on roads with little to no speed controls), there are also unfavourable weather conditions and then, on some secondary roads in Germany, the military convoys (have you never sat behind one of those? I have.)

In two weeks time, I'm off to Bavaria for two weeks of travel, beer and food. The entire trip (except the flights from Amsterdam to Munich and back) will be done by public transport (train and bus). I'm travelling with a friend and staying within Bavaria so we're using Bavarian Land tickets that cost each of us €13 for unlimited travel (not on ICE) per day. These tickets are also valid on most buses and S-bahn.
"non-retrictive pricing" What does that mean? Secondly, what does the OP "spending some time" in Duesseldorf have to do with buying a discount train ticket?

It takes planning and probably not much more effort than booking an auto rental. Simply give yourself a hour or two extra after your transcontinental flight to get from the airport to the train. If you end up with an hour extra, go shopping, have breakfast or lunch, take a walk, stop at the tourist office or just find a nice sidewalk cafe and relax, knowing that you won't have to worry about driving while jet-lagged. Or buy travel insurance.

The best Sparpreis price isn't going do me any good if you missed the train due to flight/immimgration/baggage delays etc since you can't change it on the day of departure and it's no value. Once you get the walk-up fare, the "at a fractional cost math" goes out the door.

You wrote yourself "Simply give yourself a hour or two extra after your transcontinental flight to get from the airport to the train." So suddenly the 1:19 journey time becomes a 3:19 journey time?

Please reference the trains you are train/price you are getting your numbers from.
The only 29EUR option I see involves at least one connection with a journey time of 2:45 or more hours. So add on another "hour or two extra" to qualify for the Sparpreis becomes a 4 hour affair.

Is the train a fractional cost when travelling with a small party size on Sparpreis and everything goes according to plan? Yes.

Is the train a fractional cost when travelling with several passengers or if a travel delay happen? No. The train might be comparable (again depends on the number of passengers) but it could also be significantly more expensive.

I see that you have neglected to respond to the questions I left to you. Such as the travel time to the auto pick-up and drop-off. You also don't comment on my point that loading up the auto with five people will have a negative effect on fuel cost. Why don't you answer them?

Have you heard of travel insurance? If you are so concerned about missing a train (it's never ever happened to me or anyone I know, btw), then invest in travel insurance. The Bahn offers some for €6.

Now you are just twisting words around. How does sitting down at cafe become journey time?Go look yourself. Just check three months from today. BTW, I'm looking on the German site.

Just look at the train I quoted. Direct. What are you trying to prove?
If you want to continue paying €170 for several hours on the road, while I pay €29 for a bit over one hour of travel, be my guest.

Hopefully, there are other people reading this who are a bit more sensible and will find the information useful.

Time to pickup rental car is going to be about the same as getting the train. The DUS car rental garage is physically closer than the DUS regional train station. The entrance to the autobahn is only a right turn follow by a left turn out of the garage. If you've driven enough, you would know that effect additional petrol between one and five is minimal (the bulk of the mass is the vehicle itself). Even if you factor in a generous 10% extra fuel, it still cost less than the walk-up fare of the train (depending on party size).

As for travel insurance, you're just randomly throwing out ideas without even looking at them in detail. The bahn insurance will cover the discounted ticket if passenger happened to be dead or suffered a serious illness. It doesn't covert flight delays.

Time is money. If the extra time waiting for the train is not factored in, then traffic jams should not be in your argument against auto either. I’ve done the drive 2:15 to 3 hours (without/with summer construction traffic).

I see the 29EUR non-stop in August. So I'm update my statement to reflect.
Is the train always going to be cheaper than car rental? No.
Is the train a fractional cost when travelling with a small party size and booked weeks/months in advance and everything goes according to plan? Yes.
Is the train a fractional cost when travelling with several passengers or if you to miss the reserved discounted train? No. The train might be comparable (again depends on the number of passengers) but it could also be significantly more expensive especially if you miss the ticketed train while on a Sparpreis fare.

Not to you it's not. I've proven that the train is faster and cheaper than the auto, but you are throwing out every possible excuse you can think of to avoid accepting it.

I, of course, can't force you, but, by the same token, your very questionable objections I find dishonest. Why not just admit it? You would rather drive than take a train no matter the cost, inconvenience and extra time.

If you bought the Bahn travel insurance, the train would cost you €35. But that would end your travel delay fear. So, instead, you'd rather pay €170. :confused:

The problem I have with your first post is that you are saying train is always going to be fractional cost compared to car rental for DUS-FRA when it isn't because there is a number of factors that affect the cost/benefit analysis to it (number of passengers and/or potential delays due to OP is flying into DUS).

You just can't accept that the train isn't always going to be cheaper whereas I have accepted that train can be, but not always, cheaper depending on the factors above.

The only thing you've proven that the train is cheaper if the travel party is 1 (at most 2) and they are able to use the Sparpreis fare. If both conditions are false, you proof falls apart.

Have you even look at what the insurance you suggest covers? 1.) It doesn't even apply in this case; passenger need to be dead or seriously ill for coverage to kick in. 2.) The "coverage" is the refund of the 29EUR, not reimburse you for a walk-up fare. Passenger is still left with getting hosed by a walk-up fare if they miss the train due to flight/immigration/baggage delays. 3.) Are you seriously going to pay 6EUR to potentially cover a 29EUR loss especially one that doesn't cover flight delays?

I say again. In certain situations, trains would be cheaper (much cheaper) but in other situations, it isn't and could be more expensive.

And the problem I have with all your posts is that logic and facts don't seem to have much of an impression on you. I proved that the cost per passenger on the train was €29. That cost is lower than the per passenger cost in the prices you yourself gave. And yet, here you are again saying the number of passengers can make autos cheaper. It can't.
Correct. Because those are the facts, whether you like them or not.
Not true at all.
On the German site, it says the insurance covers the cost of a replacement ticket.
And I say again: you have disregarded facts and logic in order to justify your preferred method of travel.

Also, in your previous message, you wrote: "The entrance to the autobahn is only a right turn follow by a left turn out of the garage." There is no highspeed motorway that runs through the city centre. So, you need to take some form of transport to the garage before entering the motorway. That is time you failed to take into account when you said how long the trip took you.

I'm going to end it here. This has gone on quite long enough. I had hoped that we could discuss this on a logical level, but it doesn't seem to be possible, so I don't see any point in continuing. Your point that an auto can be cheaper than a train ticket can only be true if you don't have to hire an auto or pay for fuel. That is something local people can perhaps do (not hire an auto), but, for people who don't live there, it's not possible and so the train is cheaper, faster, more comfortable and safer.

I was ready to put this behind in post #12.

You want to talk facts? Let’s do the math once more because you are ignoring the numbers when they are right in front of your eyes. 113EUR is less than 116EUR. 113EUR is less than 145EUR. Those are product of car rental cost (with fuel) vs. the 29EUR per passenger for 4/5 passengers respectively.

But before I provide references.

You do realize you are arguing from a position of disadvantage and you’re now trying to dig yourself out of the hole you created? What I wrote in post 6 stated a “it depends” position on the train vs. car hire cost. Whereas you are arguing that the absolute position that train will always been cheaper period; end of story.

All I have to do is point out one example of car rental plus fuel being cheaper than the train and that invalidates your argument.

You asked for the facts, so here goes the facts.
Take your 29EUR and multiply by 4 passengers. That’s 116EUR.
Hertz is renting one way Opel Astra SW 83EUR (pick a August Saturday on hertz.co.uk). That leaves 33EUR for gas which I've already establish is enough. Actual gas is closer to 28-30EUR based on experience. Last I checked 83 + 30 = 113 which is less than 116. Doing the math for 5 passengers validates my point even more.

Care to continue to ignore the “facts?”

Your black-white position of trains is always cheaper than the car makes me wonder if you ever even made the DUS to FRA journey at all. Because you're not looking at the real world nor do you fact check.

Delays happen in life. The 29EUR is only good if you jump thru the hoops of booking weeks/months in advance and everything goes according to plan. Where is the passage that states the bahn insurance will reimburse you for a walk-up fare if you have a flight delay? Think about it. If the insurance covers a situation where passenger was late to the ticketed train, no one will every buy a walk up ICE fare. They just do what you are proposing, buy the restricted fare and take the insurance.

The OP indicated he is flying into DUS airport; not flying into city centre. The A44 is right next to the DUS terminal/garage. The DUS regional train station requires a skytrain from the terminal to the station followed by a 2 minute walk to the platform.