Frontier might be the best ULCC
 

Hi,
I recently had the opportunity to fly frontier and just want to share my experience.
The flight only cost me $36 to fly from Memphis to Philadelphia.
The seats are actually not that uncomfortable, especially for a 2 hour flight. Legroom is comparable to legacy carriers.
My flight arrived on time, which is always appreciated.
I also made a detailed video on this flight. I worked really hard on it lol... so please check it out! :) Thanks!

It might be. But, it is not.

One flight means nothing. F9 has horrible performance, no interline agreements, and many routes with few frequencies. In IRROPS, you are either stuck for days or wind up purchasing a ticket on a real carrier for a lot more real money.

I guess I got lucky then haha.
but do you think they're worse than spirit, allegiant, or sun country?

I wouldn't fly Allegiant after listening to that 60 minutes story about their maintenance issues. Also, for me, Allegiant flies out of Rockford,. Spirit and Frontier fly out of O'Hare.

Spirit isn't any better than Frontier and as I've said, I like Frontier status for my frequent trips to LAS. 20k Frontier status gets you free exit and stretch seats if they are available at 24 hr check-in and free regular seat reservation. You also get a free carry on. I see that Spirit started having status this year as well.

The negatives listed by Often are true, but also true for the other carriers listed (I don't know anything about Sun Country). For my travel, F9 works great. I have trip delay insurance from.credit card for delays or cancellations. I actually hope every time that there is a covered delay so I can trigger the benefits but it's only happened once for me.

I'll take the risk for my $50-75 round trip flights ORD-LAS with unlimited leg room in my exit row seat plus free carry on.

Frontier has a better vibe to it than Spirit as well. Maybe it's from having some FAs who pre-date the full-ULCC period. I think the cabins are slightly better, and of course with Frontier you can get an ice water to drink free.

As mentioned, some disadvantages with ULCCs are pretty common for all of them.

It's not for everyone, though. For many families and other infrequent travelers who pack a lot, Southwest could still be the best bet.

Flying Frontier for the first time on Sunday out of DEN, should be interesting, as I flew Spirit a few times before and Allegiant once, so I look forward to comparing the three of them.

I'm of course flying Delta first class into DEN, so I know I can't compare apples to oranges, but at least I have "stretch" seating on my F9 flight.

I don't know of a single ultra-low cost carrier in the US that has meaningful interline agreements, high frequency on most of their routes, or particularly stellar performance metrics. Spirit had a couple good months not too long ago, but not sure if that's been sustained. But pretty much everything stated about F9 is very common on ULCCs.

Personally, I think Frontier is a touch nicer on board than Spirit, and I prefer both over Sun Country after their ULCC changes. I've never taken Allegiant, so I can't comment on them from a personal perspective. All of them are competing on price, though, and I wouldn't go particularly out of my way to use one over another.

What Frontier has going for it is tremendous value -- at least for the moment. If you game their system, the fares are often astonishingly cheap. The key is to buy nothing other than airfare from them. This is easy because their bag fees are stupidly high (I never see more than a handful of people carrying on regular carry-ons because they charge $40 each way), their seat assignment fees are high and easily avoidable by gaming your check-in time, and the "food" they sell on board is pathetic and overpriced.

I do wonder if this is sustainable, though. They are basically the Walmart of the Skies. It's actually astonishing to me how different their clientele is from the major USA airlines. The USA elites generally refuse to fly them at any price, even though the service is really only a little worse than regular USA cattle-car class. I don't see "anyone" buying any ancillary service: as I said, nobody pays for carry-ons and they sell few seat assignments and almost no food. Their clientele just doesn't have the money to do these things, even if they wanted to. There's no way this model is sustainable on $39 fares. I don't see how they can be generating enough revenue to cover their costs..

I'm guessing on-board sales vary heavily by route and time of day. Flights to Las Vegas likely have fairly high on-board sales, and afternoon/evening flights to leisure destinations might bat a bit higher as well (people wanting to pregame or have a bit of enjoyment/treat themselves, basically.) As for carry-on bags, most people will simply check bags as Frontier prices a checked bag cheaper than a carry-on. I've seen long lines at the check-in counter for people checking bags, so they're likely making additional revenue that way.

There's plenty of customers that they're likely not making money on (always buying cheap flights, using promo codes, buying at the airport to save on fees, no ancillary baggage, etc.) but overall I wouldn't be surprised to see them making a profit.

It is strange to me how I can be Elite with Frontier, which would suggest that I'm an important and revenue generating customer.

The reality is that I NEVER buy anything on board. I take munchies bought at the Dollar Tree. I buy a bottle of soda before boarding the plane for two reasons: I can't get Diet Mountain Dew on board, and I prefer something with a cap on it in case of turbulence. If I DO drink anything on board, it's the free cup of water.

It hasn't happened yet, but if the free carryon and free personal item weren't enough to take what I needed, I would just use the Scottevest trick. So no baggage money from me.

Obviously I get a free seat assignment now, but before I virtually always got my preferred aisle seat due to having this noted in my profile. Of course, we all remember the brief period after website "improvements" where our profile forgot our preferences; I got saddled with middle seats a couple of times because of this. First world problem, I know...

I hope Frontier gets a nice kickback from Barclays for bestowing these niceties on a low rolling flier like me. I am actually afraid that this is too good for those of us that can take advantage of the perks, and that it won't be long before there will be some devaluation. Thankfully, this value driven frequent flyer program seems to have been ignored by travel writers, since nobody would think an ULCC would have anything worth looking into. I hope they never find out.

Are you spending on the Barclay's Frontier credit card to get you to 20,000 miles? I will say that Frontier's 20K elite is a good deal -- much better than silver status in other airline programs -- because it eliminates the major annoyances of flying Frontier (giving you things that are very worthwhile, but not worth paying for).

I have never flown on Frontier (or Spirit or Allegiant), and I am not recommending that anyone do so. But it appears that there is now a relatively low-cost way of insuring against IRROPS on these carriers:

https://www.getfreebird.com/travelers

A Freebird rep has confirmed to me that if you have a covered flight from or to an airport with little or no other service, Freebird will rebook you to or from a nearby airport at your request (e.g., EWR instead of TTN).

iahphx... I got a good majority of the miles towards Elite using the credit card. But I flew several times as well. Going from Cleveland to Las Vegas a few times a year will rack up the miles quickly. But before last year, I didn't factor any of this into my decision-making. With the decent perks, now I am fully cognizant of what I am doing.

I still fly Spirit a few times a year as well, since I charge and fly enough on Frontier to not really worry about making Elite. I agree with others that flying Frontier is a little better experience than Spirit, though it's not enough to make me pay a lot more for fares in the absence of the Elite perks.

Interesting. The single biggest deterrent to my flying Frontier more are their bag fees. I can get a free full-size carry-on flying any of the major US airlines on even a basic economy fare (I have elite status on UA, otherwise they still charge with basic economy tickets). This means I will only fly Frontier if their fare is absurdly cheap and I "can live" with a big backpack. Otherwise, there's no real cost savings and it's a hassle. BTW, I'm kind of astonished by Frontier's carry-on fee. First, I don't even know what it is! It seems to be variable. Lately, on my reservations, they've said $40 and $45 each way. That's batsh!t crazy! And others seem to agree: on full A321s, I'm seeing maybe 5 or 6 pax with carry-ons -- and some of those pax probably have status that waives the fee. So they're not making any ancillary revenue off this. Something like $20 would seem more logical.

Many people probably check their bags since the checked bag fee is lower than the carryon fee. On other airlines that have a checked bag fee but no carry on fee, the overhead bins get absurdly full. On Frontier that's never been a problem.

The lack of carry-on bags is achieving their goal, though. People stowing carry-ons and trying to find room for them slows down boarding. By making the cost of a carry-on higher than checking a bag, most people will check a bag, thus speeding up boarding and allowing for shorter turns at each airport.

Frontier's clientele -- which, on average, seems to consist of a high proportion of infrequent flyers -- probably does check bags more frequently than "frequent flyers" at other airlines check bags. That said, checked bags aren't a lot cheaper. Does Frontier even have a fixed bag fee these days? On my last Frontier trip, it was $40 for a carry-on and $42 for a checked bag. Obviously, the checked bag only makes sense if you're going to carrying all your worldly possessions with you or you're smart enough to consolidate your entire party's belongings into one ginormous bag instead of multiple carry-ons. In any event, it's obvious that Frontier's sky-high carry-on fee greatly discourages people from bringing carry-ons. I agree this is good for everyone else who's just bringing a backpack -- there's always tons of room because there are so few full-sized carry-ons -- but I think it's a screwball way to do business.

I will second jebr's observation that flights to Las Vegas have a fair amount of onboard sales, mainly alcohol, to "get in the mood" for Sin City ahead of time. I have seen this no matter the departing airport; Cleveland, Akron-Canton, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Columbus, all of which I've flown out of on either Frontier or Spirit.

iahphx... I agree the baggage fees are out of sight on F9 and NK; I think you are absolutely right that both would do better with lower baggage fees to encourage higher utilization. If all of their customers were like el cheapo me there is no way they could survive.

I still have people ask me after all of these years of flying both NK and F9 if I feel safe, because they just can't believe that planes can be properly maintained AND fly people for $28 roundtrip.

Coming back to this after I've flown F9 now.

In all honesty, other than the livery on the outside of the planes, some of the brands offered on-board, and Spirit's Big Front Seat, there is really nothing differentiating the experience/cabins on F9, NK, and G4. They are all perfectly reasonable for the cost & risks and really you'd only pick one over the other depending on the routes they fly/where you want to go.

Also as a side note, at least the night I flew F9 out of Denver, they only policed your free carry-on if it had wheels to make sure you paid for it, otherwise despite the ads around the terminal warning you about your backpack size they never made anyone thrown their non-wheeled bag into the sizers. There was a family traveling that argued over not paying to bring their stroller and over carry-on on board but seeing them later board I'm assuming they eventually paid up lol.

I do not believe it is as safe to fly Frontier as it is to fly, say, American. In an emergency, would you trust Frontier flight attendants to do the "right" things? For all their faults, I know the major airline flight attendants are better trained and more professional. I also suspect that the major airline pilots get better training and have more experience.

That said, flying Frontier is perfectly safe. Air travel is crazy safe these days. You don't need to have the BEST crews. So the difference isn't material. So even if it is not as safe flying Frontier as it is flying American, I will still fly Frontier if it is significantly cheaper. Just like I'll rent a Nissan Sentra if it's half the price of an Altima. The Altima is safer. The Sentra is safe.

I've written about this before. It is generally not a good idea to bring a baby wheeled suitcase on Frontier or Spirit. There's something about wheels that makes them want to throw them into the sizer. On both Frontier and Spirit, I've had to abandon suitcases (old cheapo kids wheelies) at the gate because they didn't "fit" the sizer. On Spirit, it was a couple of years ago. At the time, they had an oddball carry-on suitcase size, and they had published their new sizes (the ones they use today) that were going to become effective in about 2 weeks. My carry-on was 100% complaint with the new rules, but missed the old rules by about an inch. The gate agent didn't care. On Frontier, my suitcase was complaint, but one of the wheels stuck out by less than half an inch. She also didn't care. Just bring a backpack. Nobody cares.

The one airline I'd be wary of right now is Allegiant because of that 60 minutes story summarized in this article:

https://www.tampabay.com/live-covera...allegiant-air/

Here's a brief segment from 60 minutes overtime:


I'm not sure i agree with AA being safer considering how bad the morale is over there currently. F9 was having some issues with slowdowns before but I have to say that the flight attendants at f9 seem to in a better mood than than ones ive flown with in the past on legacy airlines.

I would not be particularly worried about "morale" at AA or any other major USA airline. USA airline crews tend, by nature, to be a bit grumpy and burnt out. But they generally have good training and would know what to do in an emergency. Frontier crews are trained, but it isn't hard to figure out that it's harder to become an AA flight attendant than it is to become a Frontier flight attendant. That's just reality. If there was an inflight emergency, I would much rather it be on an AA flight than a Frontier flight. Just like I'd rather have an experienced surgeon from a prestigious hospital operate on me than a newbie from Podunk General.. I don't think it matters much, but I'm not blind to the reality.

You do know Allegiant, unlike other airlines, has retired their fleet of MD80s? They are currently moving up the list of top airlines (see: Wall Street Journal annual analysis), whereas American's operations are solidly in last place. But hey, YMMV.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/undefinedhttps://www.flyertalk.com/forum/undefinedhttps://www.flyertalk.com/forum/undefinedhttps://www.flyertalk.com/forum/undefinedJust a reality check: AA is currently the number 2 airline in the USA for operational reliability (cancelled flights and on-time). DL is number one. AA's 2019 ops just look bad due to an illegal work slowdown by their mechanics last spring/summer. After a judge ordered them back to work last summer -- and indicated that they might owe AA tens of millions of dollars in damages -- AA has been quite reliable to fly on.

I can't say that I keep up with the changes in the industry. That 60 minutes piece is going to be stuck in my head so they would need to do a lot of publicity to make me change my mind. Fortunately they aren't a realistic option for me bc Rockford is far from me and ORD is only 20 mins from me

A lot of those issues stemmed from their MD-80 fleet (but not all). I'm a private pilot myself and did not fly Allegiant after a different incident I read about in LAS. This incident, had the failure occurred perhaps 30 seconds later, likely would have resulted in all on board perishing. It's a very similar situation to Alaska 261. It seems that Allegiant had a very bad stretch over a year or so where constant issues were arising. I haven't flown them since, but I wouldn't hesitate to anymore as the FAA looked into their maintenance practices heavily. Don't let the "new" airbus fleet fool you though as about 12% of their fleet is around 20 years old still despite being all Airbus A319/A320.

I don't think F9, NK, or G4 are unsafe, or that one is safer than the other. Maybe perceptually they are though.

I ended up watching the "Air Disasters" or similar show on that Alaska flight. That had to been one of the worst ways to crash that I've seen on those programs.

As bad as it was, it was rather amazing how long the pilots maintained control of the aircraft. A fully deflected stuck control surface on an aircraft is probably one of those most difficult challenges a flight crew could ever face. I read the movie Flight was influenced by this accident, and you can definitely tell from the accident scene in it.

Nonetheless, that Allegiant incident did not get nearly the amount of press that I think it should have as I believe that was truly the closest they've come to an accident.

Same. I've been in the left seat of 50+ year-old trainers on and off since 1995 and spent nearly as much time training with Civil Air Patrol, and Allegiant absolutely terrifies me. Unfortunately, they're the only carrier with direct flights between SFB and TRI, so I fly them more often than I'd like. At least the newer A320s don't literally have visible duct tape like like old MD-80s did. That's at least somewhat more comforting.

I believe Spirit is better for network connectivity.

If I choose a route like PHL-MSY, I see that Frontier offers less than daily service in March.
For example,
3/14 0 nonstop flights
3/15 1 nonstop flight
3/16 0 nonstop flights
3/17 1 nonstop flight

On the days, it has a nonstop, it's the only option available.

Spirit is less than daily but every day there are at least 2 1-stops.

For example,
3/16 1 nonstop flight available that day, but there are 2 1-stop flight (connect in FLL) available as a fallback in case flight is cancelled or you miss your flight.

There was once a time when I couldn't clear security on time and missed a DFW-PHL nonstop. The Spirit agent put me on a DFW-ATL-PHL ticket that left a little later at no charge.

I've noticed with Frontier, it's all or nothing, or some really out of the way connect in DEN option, but Spirit has connections typically available as well at PHL.

I got the credit-card e-mail today that said, "RustyC, with your current balance of 396,728 Miles + 50,000 Bonus Miles, you could have 446,728 Miles!"

Wow, I didn't know I already had that many miles! I logged into check and nope, still only about 67K :( like before.

Thanks for noticing this. I've actually flown this route (and one additional time I wanted to, but my flight was cancelled at the last minute because there was some frozen precipitation at MSY, and Frontier had no deicing fluid!). It's an interesting route because, obviously, there is SOME demand for PHL-MSY service, but AA (and, previously, US) always charged a high monopolistic fare on this route. This pricing, while perhaps profit maximizing for AA, reduced demand. When Frontier started flying it daily, demand soared (Frontier's planes seemed full), but average fares collapsed. I've bought tickets for $20 on the route, and it's not uncommon to see them below $40.

If Frontier's business model is ever going to work, it going to have to work on a route like PHL-MSY. That's a Captain Obvious route for a low cost airline. They have to be able to price at above cost. It does not look like they have been able to do this. Flying the route only a few days a week is going to reduce yields further, and cause AA to squeeze them even harder on the days they do fly. I just don't see Frontier "making it." They need a new business plan.

If AA at PHL's price matching is too fierce, TTN is up the road. Frontier or the authority running TTN has never participated in a solid marketing of the airport.

For MSY, it could do daily out of Trenton during MSY's peak tourist season, spring and then less than daily during late summer. Offer some TTN-MCO-MSY and TTN-ATL-MSY flights that time well for additional coverage complementing the nonstops. Likewise, the TTN-MSY flights should have continue through or reasonable connects to DFW, IAH, AUS and/or SAT.

They're also back in Wilmington now. But these secondary airport s have their own problems. Frontier just needs to find a business model where they have enough pax paying rational fares. Lately, my daily car rental charge is more than my airfare. This is crazy.

Yeah, the secondary airports can be pleasant to fly into, but you can be really nicked badly on the car rents if it's just Hertz and Avis there. Enough so to make that a dealbreaker for budget-conscious leisure travelers.

Is it just me, or is the Frontier website now not letting you see monthly calendars for one way searches, too? I don't know if it's my computer, Frontier's IT, or the airline wising up to the fact that people really want to see the calendars and just doing away with it, a la round trip searches.

Yes, it's easy enough to do another one way search to see a different week's worth of fares, but it's just so unnecessary and upsetting,quite frankly.

Although the actual flying experience and credit card perks are better with Frontier than Spirit, the latter is actually better in other ways. One, the ability to see a month's worth of fares.

Two, as already mentioned, Spirit has better connectivity with more normal connections. No spending the night in Denver with them.

And three, you can actually see a seat map of the plane to try to gauge sales up to that point. I know most people don't pay for seats on either airline, but if I see a Spirit seat map with an unusually large number of seats paid for, I can at least assume that prices for that flight will not go down appreciably.

With Frontier, there are sky high airfares and it's hard to know if the flight is really selling well. Often the only way to know is if the airline suddenly slashes fares by half or more.

Frontier management seems weak to me. Their pricing model -- so many $39 fares -- can't possibly work. And, as you note, their website and pricing strategies are now confusing. Discount airlines should be easy to buy fares on. Spirit is easy (yes, you have a bunch of stupid clicks because they want to sell you extra stuff, but it's still easy). Frontier's website is now confusing, I believe this will be the kiss of death for them if they don't fix it. Also, their website is more glitchy and broken than any other airline I use. Signs are flashing mayday here, but we don't really know much about their financials. At the moment, they seem to have enough cash, but I can't believe they're making money doing what they're doing.

TTN's site is a lot better than ILG as TTN is in between Philly and Newark, and closer to a lot of people.

Wilmington (New Castle) appears to only pull from passengers who'd otherwise fly out of PHL, most have to drive past PHL, and meanwhile ILG is still too close to PHL to have enough of its own distinct market to pull from.

I think most the people flying into the area (TTN/PHL) are visiting friends and family. It's actually inexpensive taking an Uber or Lyft within 30 or so miles of TTN, especially if one doesn't cross a bridge, and local Enterprise as well as Budget which is cheaper than Hertz. SEPTA W. Trenton line and Northeast corridor aren't too far by way of ride-share to the train station.