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LAX-(DEN)-BNA (Nashville) available on Sep 2 and on NO OTHER DAY!!!

LAX-(DEN)-BNA (Nashville) available on Sep 2 and on NO OTHER DAY!!!

Old Jun 24, 14, 7:25 pm
  #1  
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Exclamation LAX-(DEN)-BNA (Nashville) available on Sep 2 and on NO OTHER DAY!!!

Go to:

http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/flight-finder

Enter LAX (Los Angeles) as Flying From and BNA (Nashville) as Flying To.

Now try to select a departure date. It jumps the calendar immediately to September, and says (in red):
Service between Los Angeles, CA (LAX) and Nashville, TN (BNA) begins September 02, 2014.
But wait, I can't select Sep 3, or Sep 4, or any other day in September! What's up? Well, scrolll the date calendar right one month, and it then says:
Service between Los Angeles, CA (LAX) and Nashville, TN (BNA) is discontinued after September 02, 2014
That's a mightly long time (1 whole day) to provide service between two cities, isn't it?

However, you can fly the reverse direction (BNA to LAX) on any day that you want!

Investigating futther, it appears that the reason LAX to BNA is normally not offered is because there's no same-day connection possible in DEN (the only connection airport possible), and Frontier won't allow overnight connection. What's different about Sep 2 is that for some reason they've added an extra 7 am flight LAX-DEN for Sep 2 but apparently for Sep 2 only. (Normally the first LAX-DEN flight isn't until almost 10 am.)

What sort of bizarre schedule is this???

How many other cities does LAX have "misconnects" to because all the departures to those cities leave before the first flight from LAX has come into DEN?

Frontier should start a new advertising campaign: "We'll fly to you to LAX, but you can't go back home!"

SNA [Orange County) doesn't have the same problem as LAX, because SNA's first flight to DEN is before 7 am. Why is the first flight LAX to DEN so late in the morning?
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Old Jun 24, 14, 10:00 pm
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It might have reduced frequencies on those routes that connections via DEN aren't possible.

Spirit also has connections like that. (e.g only one ways sold for example ACY-MYR-ORD during some times of year). I have connected in MYR before and remembered it was sold only one-way.

I'm surprised that it is selling LAX-DEN-BNA on that single day (Sep 2).

Rather than be a network LCC like AirTran and southwest, Frontier wants to be ULCC on each route. The question then is do the small markets like GSO have enough demand to DEN not the sum of the markets west of it via DEN connections.

Last edited by rtalk25; Jun 24, 14 at 10:19 pm
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Old Jun 25, 14, 4:00 pm
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Originally Posted by rtalk25 View Post
It might have reduced frequencies on those routes that connections via DEN aren't possible.

Spirit also has connections like that. (e.g only one ways sold for example ACY-MYR-ORD during some times of year). I have connected in MYR before and remembered it was sold only one-way.

I'm surprised that it is selling LAX-DEN-BNA on that single day (Sep 2).

Rather than be a network LCC like AirTran and southwest, Frontier wants to be ULCC on each route. The question then is do the small markets like GSO have enough demand to DEN not the sum of the markets west of it via DEN connections.
Well, the problem is that I, as someone not in DEN, don't want a separate airline that is only good for flying to DEN but nowhere else (since I don't have business in DEN nor friends or family in DEN). If an airline (that is not part of any alliance) is only good for flying to one city, forget it, there's enough other airlines that don't have that limitation. (Unless, of course, you have recurrent need to keep flying to DEN, or, most obiously, if you happen to be based in DEN.)

But DEN is not the same as MCO, FLL, or LAS, is it? Are there really throngs of people (who might book with an ULCC) wanting to fly specifically to DEN the way there are throngs of people wanting to fly specifically to MCO (Orlando, for the theme parks), FLL (cruise capital Fort Lauderdale), or LAS (Las Vegas)?

It seems to me that an airline hubbing in not-so-touristy cities like DEN can't use the same business model as an airline hubbing in (or at least near) "tourist meccas".

Last edited by sdsearch; Jun 25, 14 at 4:06 pm
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Old Jun 25, 14, 4:29 pm
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Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
Well, the problem is that I, as someone not in DEN, don't want a separate airline that is only good for flying to DEN but nowhere else (since I don't have business in DEN nor friends or family in DEN). If an airline (that is not part of any alliance) is only good for flying to one city, forget it, there's enough other airlines that don't have that limitation. (Unless, of course, you have recurrent need to keep flying to DEN, or, most obiously, if you happen to be based in DEN.)
Frontier tried being the airline you want and went bust in the process. Deliberately cutting back on connection possibilities, by lower frequencies, has dramatically improved the airlines finances.

Some connection opportunities do still exist at DEN but IAD, for example, is being developed without connection opportunities, much like TTN, or even CLE.

I guess the answer is simple - if an airline doesn't provide what you want, don't fly that airline.
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Old Jun 26, 14, 7:25 am
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Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
Well, the problem is that I, as someone not in DEN, don't want a separate airline that is only good for flying to DEN but nowhere else (since I don't have business in DEN nor friends or family in DEN). If an airline (that is not part of any alliance) is only good for flying to one city, forget it, there's enough other airlines that don't have that limitation. (Unless, of course, you have recurrent need to keep flying to DEN, or, most obiously, if you happen to be based in DEN.)
Shocking investigative report: Smallish airlines can't be all things to all people. In other news, sdsearch still thinks the world revolves around him by marking a thread about an airline not offering a connection he wants with a high importance 'exclamation' icon.

Last edited by lowfareair; Jun 26, 14 at 8:52 am Reason: typo
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Old Jun 26, 14, 8:16 am
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Originally Posted by davywavy View Post
Frontier tried being the airline you want and went bust in the process. Deliberately cutting back on connection possibilities, by lower frequencies, has dramatically improved the airlines finances.

Some connection opportunities do still exist at DEN but IAD, for example, is , being developed without connection opportunities, much like TTN, or even CLE.

I guess the answer is simple - if an airline doesn't provide what you want, don't fly that airline.
For IAD, DCA-DEN is covering the DEN connections and DEN O&D for WAS customers. Since the OP is local to LAX, maybe the OP can use SNA?

Overall correct point though in your analysis.

TTN-MDW-DEN though still persists, but I wonder if there are customers that actually use it through DEN or if it's more a fleet usage operational flight continuation. I've found the PHL-DEN advance fares to be generally more competitive than TTN-MDW-DEN and TTN-MDW-DEN having a slight discount to no discount than the sum of the two legs (TTN-MDW) and (MDW-DEN) if priced separately and purchase together.

ILG-DEN returns with connections in August 15. In the summer, it runs late in the evening not permitting connections but the return of the route with connections permitted is very light, only 4x weekly or so for the entire Philly region. I've wondered if Frontier could make a run of DEN-ABE and DEN-ACY if limited 3x weekly to bracket the Philly-New Jersey region even further and/or finally get DEN-TTN nonstop launched if it still has interest in it.

Last edited by rtalk25; Jun 26, 14 at 8:27 am
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Old Jun 26, 14, 1:14 pm
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Originally Posted by rtalk25 View Post
For IAD, DCA-DEN is covering the DEN connections and DEN O&D for WAS customers.
It's s hard to imagine anyone schlepping between DCA and IAD for a connection:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...ulles/9030613/

"Frontier spokeswoman Kate O'Malley tells Today in the Sky that while Dulles will be a focus city for Frontier, it's not being developed as a connecting hub like the one Frontier operates in Denver."

Some connections may eventually happen (at IAD), or some self-connects may be possible, but the airline's primary interest is O&D traffic, as at TTN.

Connections can be expensive for a small airline with only fifty aircraft, very high utilisation and limited frequencies, misconnects involving hotel vouchers especially so.

Since the OP is local to LAX, maybe the OP can use SNA?
Or there are at least two airlines that fly non-stop LAX-BNA.

I've wondered if Frontier could make a run of DEN-ABE and DEN-ACY if limited 3x weekly to bracket the Philly-New Jersey region even further and/or finally get DEN-TTN nonstop launched if it still has interest in it.
The problem with all the east coast routes to/from DEN is that however well they do in summer they are generally poor in winter and they use a lot of fuel.

If it's true that Frontier is using a DEN-LGA slot pair for CLE-LGA, then I'd say it it's a very smart move.

I assume TTN-DEN will eventually happen, once the runway issues are sorted out, and IAD-DEN may happen, one day, but it obviously isn't a priority.
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Old Jun 26, 14, 3:52 pm
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Originally Posted by davywavy View Post
It's s hard to imagine anyone schlepping between DCA and IAD for a connection:
I didn't mean it the way you think I mean it. I didn't mean a pax fly DEN-DCA and then schlep to IAD to get on IAD-CLT.

Although British Airways does sell those kind of itineries with LHR and LGW oddly enough.

I meant WAS customers still have the DCA-DEN flights (3x daily too) to connect to reach the West coast or just end in DEN, even though they have their IAD focus for a reaching lot of East/Midwest cities
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Old Jun 26, 14, 3:57 pm
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Originally Posted by davywavy View Post
Originally Posted by rtalk25 View Post
Since the OP is local to LAX, maybe the OP can use SNA?
Or there are at least two airlines that fly non-stop LAX-BNA.
Actually three: AA, DL, and WN.

And, btw, I had already booked AA nonstops (after comparing prices, schedule, and other factors on DL and WN), before I even looked at the Frontier site. So I wan't trying to book at Frontier, I was just looking (mostly for future reference) whether I could have booked there.

Originally Posted by lowfareair View Post
In other news, sdsearch still thinks the world revolves around him by marking a thread about an airline not offering a connection he wants with a high importance 'exclamation' icon.
It wasn't a connection "I wanted".

It being available only one day was simply something I noticed, and I thought it was extremely odd (starting and discontinuing a two-city connection on the same day)!

I was just checking Frontier's site since I was wondering, in retrospect, whether I should have checked it (in addition to DL and AA and WN, plus Orbitz) before making the final purchase. (I wasn't sure whether Frontier shows up on Orbitz, since Southwest doesn't.) It was then that, trying to put in my real travel dates, I got the "forced" September 2 date, which I'd never seen before (at Frontier or at any other airline).

If Frontier had simply said it does not offer connections LAX-BNA, I wouldn't have posted anything. I didn't necessarily expect Frontier to offer LAX-BNA connections. As I reflected in my thread title, the main point of my starting this thread was the bizarre fact that the connection was available but only on September 2, not that Frontier doesn't (normally) connect LAX to BNA. The secondary points was why it bothers providing BNA-LAX connections when it can't provide LAX-BNA connections (ie, simply the "unbalanced" nature of what cities you can fly between).

I'm sure there's a ton of cities that any airline doesn't connect. That's not news. Few airlines, however, connect on only one day of the year; that's why I thought this was news.

Last edited by sdsearch; Jun 26, 14 at 4:15 pm
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Old Jun 26, 14, 4:36 pm
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One thing that's interesting from this discussion is that LAX-DEN doesn't permit connections to other cities either like no TYS-DEN-LAX.

SAN also is like LAX, so some flights like MDT-DEN-SAN are not possible (well technically, MDT-DEN-SAN is only possible on Wednesdays). SAN-DEN-TYS isn't possible.

TYS, MDT, GSO, out east of Texas are markets without Southwest or another LCC, so Frontier kind of fills a role as an only low cost carrier providing low fare access to the West. I'm not sure if the new Frontier wants to play that role, as it migrates to ULCC for larger markets and less connection dependent traffic.

In the meantime, I suppose SNA is there however for those that want to fly from these smaller cities to So. Cal for a low fare flight (likely lower than US, DL, AA) via Frontier.

LAS, SFO, SNA and SEA are still generally possible for west coast connections. These cover the four largest destination markets possibly out west with SNA in between LAX and SAN.

Even as Frontier migrates away connections, I'd be pretty surprised if LAS-DEN frequencies were cut in such a way that spoke city-DEN-LAS, LAS-DEN-spoke city round-trip wasn't permitted or if it was reduced so much that it was only available once a week.

Last edited by rtalk25; Jun 26, 14 at 4:51 pm
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Old Jun 26, 14, 6:19 pm
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Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
It being available only one day was simply something I noticed, and I thought it was extremely odd (starting and discontinuing a two-city connection on the same day)!

Few airlines, however, connect on only one day of the year; that's why I thought this was news.
Out of which you devised a whole hypothesis about the airline, based on one anomaly - an early am LAX-DEN on one day.

There have been anomalies before - sometimes they've sold returns on charters that would otherwise be empty, eg - and I'm pretty sure there will be anomalies again.

Originally Posted by rtalk25 View Post
Even as Frontier migrates away connections, I'd be pretty surprised if LAS-DEN frequencies were cut in such a way that spoke city-DEN-LAS, LAS-DEN-spoke city round-trip wasn't permitted or if it was reduced so much that it was only available once a week.
I assume (?) there will always be some connection possibilities at DEN, partly because of where is is situated - there aren't that many other major cities within medium range.

It's hard for me to think that a route like DEN-GTF, which does pretty well, could survive without connections at DEN, or DEN-BLI, and I'd be fairly sure that a lot of people flying from FSD or SUX want to connect - at DEN - to other places such as LAX and LAS (among others). Or connections from BIS and MOT to Florida in deep winter, perhaps?

Last edited by davywavy; Jun 26, 14 at 6:31 pm Reason: clarity
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Old Jun 28, 14, 2:34 pm
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Is there any chance Frontier would consider LGB (maybe over LAX)? Maybe swap gate with JetBlue slots there? I've read that JetBlue is de-emphasizing LGB as JetBlue goes in the premium/business pax direction slightly (where primary airport is preferred), while Frontier goes in the ULCC direction (where being a niche sometimes works).

If Frontier flew DEN-LGB, it'd have a niche that United and Southwest lack also.

From the BNA side, I would be surprised if F9 made a focus, even a small one there, because of Southwest, but Southwest and competitors do lack a nonstop to the Bay Area. Wouldn't it be interesting if Frontier added BNA-SFO 3-4x weekly.

Last edited by rtalk25; Jun 28, 14 at 2:40 pm
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Old Jun 28, 14, 4:59 pm
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Originally Posted by rtalk25 View Post
From the BNA side, I would be surprised if F9 made a focus, even a small one there, because of Southwest, but Southwest and competitors do lack a nonstop to the Bay Area. Wouldn't it be interesting if Frontier added BNA-SFO 3-4x weekly.
I'm guessing all the nonstops (on 3 airlines) LAX-BNA exist because both are major music industry cities (with many music industry companies having offices in both of those cities). That reason does not exist to BNA-SFO...
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Old Jun 28, 14, 6:11 pm
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Originally Posted by rtalk25 View Post
Is there any chance Frontier would consider LGB (maybe over LAX)? Maybe swap gate with JetBlue slots there? I've read that JetBlue is de-emphasizing LGB as JetBlue goes in the premium/business pax direction slightly (where primary airport is preferred), while Frontier goes in the ULCC direction (where being a niche sometimes works).
Hmmmm. In the early days of the Republic ownership, before Frontier embraced ULCC, it tried DEN-LBG at 2 x daily and it didn't do very well. Loads were okay-ish but yield sucked. I think it lasted no more than a year.

Surely JetBlue put LGB on the map but it's still a bit of a problem airport. JetBlue doesn't use all its slots to the max (it doesn't have to) and is pushing for FIS so at LGB so it can fly internationally, to Mexico and perhaps (?) Canada.

Predictably, the local Nimbys have blown a gasket, and CrankyFlier has a good article about it in this link:

http://crankyflier.com/2014/06/26/lo...ternationally/

"Long Beachs Anti-Airport Crowd Chooses Misguided Scare Tactics Against JetBlue Flying Internationally"

Maybe the ULCC model would work better at LGB, but I'm not sure how much Frontier will continue to develop secondary and tertiary airports. Indigo seems to have embraced TTN/ILG/UST, but its major moves to CLE and IAD suggest they see primary airports as the go. Or maybe thery're just being open-minded.

Still, if they can make the somewhat troubled IAD work, then perhaps they might look at the even more troubled ONT - another airport that has been losing service, partly because of the local economy which has been yuck but is slowly recovering.

Perhaps ONT will always be difficult, but equally, perhaps the ULCC approach is what the lower socio-economic area needs.
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Old Jun 29, 14, 9:09 pm
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I opened up the Frontier credit card and paid for the Classic Plus a few times for the extra earned miles as a perk, mainly with the idea that one day it will be redeemed for a DEN connection flight to the West Coast. Maybe that's a reason for TTN-MDW-DEN continuation, but I don't think so. I'd anyways use the ILG-DEN flight which returns to permit connections in August.

I think it's a big draw, of redeeming FF miles and being able to reach the West coast from the East Coast for free, even if connection is involved,

I wondered that even if it de-emphasizes connections, why not have have more thru flights in the network for select city pairs? e.g. Sun Country offers DCA-LAN-MSP and Southwest offers PHL-DEN-SFO. TTN-MDW-DEN is the only one that I'm aware of in the F9 network.

Last edited by rtalk25; Jun 29, 14 at 9:27 pm
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