Milwaukee Magazine article
Apr 19, 2010, 11:17 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 22
Milwaukee Magazine article
The Last Flight by Dave Phipps
May issue of Milwaukee Magazine
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/cur...essageID=25509
A perspective from inside the cockpit. The end of an era.
May issue of Milwaukee Magazine
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/cur...essageID=25509
A perspective from inside the cockpit. The end of an era.
Apr 20, 2010, 9:49 am
#2
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TPA-MKE-PHX
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The Last Flight by Dave Phipps
May issue of Milwaukee Magazine
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/cur...essageID=25509
A perspective from inside the cockpit. The end of an era.
May issue of Milwaukee Magazine
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/cur...essageID=25509
A perspective from inside the cockpit. The end of an era.
I also noted the pride in this comment:
I had been truly lucky; I’d had a remarkable and privileged career. At 21 years old, I flew all over the world with Ports of Call. At 24, I flew as a DC-9 co-pilot for Ozark. At 30, I became a DC-9 captain with Midwest, one of the youngest ever to achieve captain status.
But, he worries about others doing the same thing:
I’ve watched as new, young pilots were mass-produced and placed in sophisticated airplanes with a minimum of training, the margins of safety degraded to increase margins of profit.
It is easy to blame Republic. But, the reality is that the alternative would have been him losing almost all of what he said made Midwest great by becoming just another pilot for airTran. And that is assuming his senority would not have been diminished.
Apr 21, 2010, 3:01 pm
#6
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Apr 23, 2010, 6:19 pm
#7
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May 17, 2010, 3:59 pm
#8
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1
Difference
The point Captain Phipps was trying to make was that the amount of training required of pilots to qualify for sophisticated airplanes and for advancement in their careers has significantly decreased over the last 30 years.
In addition, Captain Phipps has a right to be proud of his acheivements. While he pointed out that he was the the youngest pilot ever at Midwest and a 24 year-old mainline Ozark DC-9 co-pilot and a 24 year-old co-pilot for Republic he achieved that status when a higher level of training was required.
In addition, Captain Phipps has a right to be proud of his acheivements. While he pointed out that he was the the youngest pilot ever at Midwest and a 24 year-old mainline Ozark DC-9 co-pilot and a 24 year-old co-pilot for Republic he achieved that status when a higher level of training was required.
May 18, 2010, 1:52 pm
#9
Join Date: Nov 2007
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The point Captain Phipps was trying to make was that the amount of training required of pilots to qualify for sophisticated airplanes and for advancement in their careers has significantly decreased over the last 30 years.
In addition, Captain Phipps has a right to be proud of his acheivements. While he pointed out that he was the the youngest pilot ever at Midwest and a 24 year-old mainline Ozark DC-9 co-pilot and a 24 year-old co-pilot for Republic he achieved that status when a higher level of training was required.
In addition, Captain Phipps has a right to be proud of his acheivements. While he pointed out that he was the the youngest pilot ever at Midwest and a 24 year-old mainline Ozark DC-9 co-pilot and a 24 year-old co-pilot for Republic he achieved that status when a higher level of training was required.
So, what would it be?
Indeed, Captain Phipps has the right to be proud. And --today--a 24 year-old co-pilot of a major or commuter airline can equally be proud. I am just surprised that Captain Phipps seems to lament that fact.
And welcome to flyertalk!
May 19, 2010, 2:13 am
#11
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Okay, what specific training would that have been for a 24 year old co-pilot then compared to now? There were very few commuter airlines then, so not there. Military? Maybe there, but the military can not begin to fill the increased ranks today.
So, what would it be?
Indeed, Captain Phipps has the right to be proud. And --today--a 24 year-old co-pilot of a major or commuter airline can equally be proud. I am just surprised that Captain Phipps seems to lament that fact.
And welcome to flyertalk!
So, what would it be?
Indeed, Captain Phipps has the right to be proud. And --today--a 24 year-old co-pilot of a major or commuter airline can equally be proud. I am just surprised that Captain Phipps seems to lament that fact.
And welcome to flyertalk!
Dave Phipps was the exception. 24 year-old regional FOs are the norm today-products of $100K+ pilot mills such as Embry-Riddle, UND, etc... Dave exhibited superior airmanship and was given a rare opportunity for someone his age. I wonder how many 24 year-old FOs are getting hired at Air Tran, Delta and Jet Blue. Maybe a few, but I doubt the number is anywhere as close to the number of 24 year-olds getting hired at Republic.
Flying airplanes is all about airmanship, not pulling levers or pushing buttons in the correct order. Training is one thing. Airmanship is another. Non-pilots seem to have trouble comprehending the differences between airmanship and training.
Where is a pilot supposed to build airmanship? Traditionally flying light twins, in the military, or at airlines like Republic. As industry pay and benefits decline, the most experienced pilots will transition from several years at a regional, corporate flying, or the military, straight to the majors such as Delta, Jet Blue, and even Air Tran. At the majors, they'll again be FOs under the watchful eye of experienced (20K+ hour), professional captains and spend a decade+ in the right seat before upgrading. Airlines like Republic will attract the lesser experienced and/or desperate pilots that can't get hired at the top-tier airlines. As a professional pilot, I avoid flying regionals to the max extent because I know what kind of buffoonery goes on in a cockpit where the combined age is 50.
Arbitration is supposed to reconvene next week (?). Decision in Sep (?). Once SLI is complete, I expect some major labor issues as a single contract is adopted. BB's labor costs are low and I suspect that's an especially vital key to his plan's success. I doubt the Republic pilot group is going to achieve F9-level wages. They've already proven they won't stand up to BB. Republic is not the airline experienced pilots are going to submit applications to. If the majors aren't hiring, the quality folks will stay at their corporate jobs (Net Jets) or in the military.
Coincidentally, I think 45 YX-legacy pilots took pilot jobs at Republic-at about 1/7 their previous pay. That's desperation!
I could give several travel scenarios that contributors to this board would avoid. Yet, they're comfortable getting on an airplane as long as the crew has passed "driver's ed" (read: trained). Well, you get what you pay for and ignorance is bliss.
Last edited by Pigeye01; May 19, 2010 at 2:31 am
May 19, 2010, 2:34 am
#12
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Posts: 193
Trust me, no pilot in the Air Force wants a BS job like flying for Republic.
May 19, 2010, 2:41 pm
#14
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Posts: 193
Was he previously on active duty? Did he leave active duty to go to a major? When? Was he furloughed? Did he try to get back on active duty but couldn't? Did he spend the three to five previous years to your meeting on Mil Leave (leave-of-absence from civilian job to fly in the ANG/Res)? Lots of questions we don't know answers to.
I also know a reservist that flies for Republic. But he's not (and never was) a pilot in the Air Force. I don't know his story, but he's trying to extend his reserve orders as long as he can.
Jun 24, 2010, 6:02 am
#15
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
Then and now....pilot experience, training, and safety
As a retired airline captain with 30 years of experience, I'd like to address the comments and questions of those young pilots above in this thread who misunderstood Captain Phipps's comments in his article, "The Last Trip". There's nothing wrong with being young or inexperienced; we all started out that way. But the career path progression of decades ago provided for much better seasoning of young pilots, as well as much more thorough training.
The training and experience level of many of today's new hire pilots is far different from that of 30, 20, or even just 10 years ago. Thirty years ago a pilot could NOT obtain employment flying a Cessna 310 (a light 6 passenger twin engine general aviation airplane) without 3000 hours of flying time, and perhaps 250 hours of multi engine time. It simply couldn't be done. The insurance companys would not insure the airplane. So most civilian pilots became flight instructors, building time. Now, it wasn't fun, but you learn something while teaching others, especially the first 2000 hours of instruction given. Gradually you got to go along in the right seat of Aztecs, or King Airs, and maybe, just maybe, if you had a good reputation and 3000 hours, you got into charter flying in light twins, building the experience level. At that point the key became getting turbine time, usually in turbo-props like King Airs. Some of the lucky guys found jobs flying air ambulance, or with corporate operators, or as co-pilots in the flegling commuter industry.
In those days, flying for a commuter meant flying an 8 passenger Navajo Chieftan or 19 passenger turbo-prop like a Metro Liner, or Twin Otter as a copilot. Getting hired in the right seat to fly 19 passengers required 2500 to 3000 hours. Nearly all pilots who wanted to fly for the airlines had the requisite four year college degree, but obtaining that turbine Pilot in Command time was the Holy Grail. After a few years of co-pilot time, you might become a captain, again on a 19 seat airplane. To move to the big time, guys had on average between 5000 to 7000 hours, with about 2000 of that in turbine airplanes as Pilot in Command. On average, it took about 7 to 10 years of flying to get to that point; (a college degree, ATP, and 5 to 7 thousand hours with PIC turbine time.) A guy was usually about 30 years old, but a few, like Captain Phipps, managed to acquire that experience at a younger age. EVEN THEN, he was far from the left seat flying a 60,000 pound jet as pilot in command........he was just getting started as an airline copilot!
Once an airline copilot, he was supervised by captains with 20, 25, or 30 years of experience. He spent many years in the right seat watching, learning, and acquiring experience in many environmental conditions....slick runways, low visibility, in rain at night, in icing, in thunderstorms. In addition, his airline trained him with expensive and thorough training programs, going back to the simulator many times before finally upgrading to captain. On average, it took another 12 years of line flying to make captain. By then, our young man was in his forties.
When we contrast that with what we see today, the picture is disconcertingly different. Many of today's young pilots come out of schools that actively advertise "we'll take you from the street to airline co-pilot in just a few months." Often these pilots come out of these schools with 250 hours. Within a few months, and with as little as 500 hours, some of these pilots were in the right seat of jets like the Canadair RJ, or the Embraer 145. The "commuter" airlines of today operate sophisticated regional jets; none of them require more than about 1500 hours total time for new hires. Many of these young pilots upgrade in 2 or 3 years, with minimal exposure to severe winter conditions, icing, thunderstorms, contaminated runways, etc. They often find themselves in the left seat with under 3000 hours....the same point where 30 years ago you would be eligible to fly a Cessna 310!
It simply is not possible to develop the exposure to critical conditions (and under the able supervision of a well qualified captain) in just 3 or even 4 years of flying. And a significant portion of these pilots do not have a four year degree at all, let alone in a related field. A four year degree can provide an excellent foundation in meterology, high speed, high altitude aerodynamics, mechanical and electrical engineering, crew resource management, and aircraft performance. All subjects that the regional airlines don't have the time and money to adequately train for the new hire.
As a retired airline captain, I too saw this inexperience take it's toll on the quality AND SAFETY within the industry. The "regional airlines" are all about low cost structure; the training is minimal and conforms only to FAA minimums....very much like the minimums for a drivers license produce newly minted drivers with little experience. And as much as a young person hates to admit it...we know young drivers are prone to more accidents. There simply is no shortcut, no substitute for experience. The key here is that if the entry level experience is low, the training and supervision by qualified captains....read that experienced captains.....must be ratcheted up to high standards. And upgrades to captain MUST come slower, and only with APPRORIATE experience, or accidents will occur to well meaning men and women, and the general public who fly behind them.
To be sure, some regional carriers DO employ many competent and experienced pilots. To be equally sure, many do not; a crew with a combined age of 45 or so is fairly common, even in 100 seat "regional" jets like the Embrear 190. In my professional opinion, gained from 30 plus years of professional airline flying, a 25 or 26 year old pilot is not well enough seasoned to be in command of these kinds of airplanes in all conditions! I mean no disrespect to any of you out there who fit this description.
I know there will be those readers who cry "foul" at this, because after all, military pilots do fly large airplanes with only a few thousand hours. And that's true, they do....but they do it with far better, more costly training and support than the young civilian pilot has. And they have a much higher number of accidents per million flight hours. But then they have a very different mission, and a very demanding world wide operating envelope.
As a final thought, allow me to leave you with this question. Who among us, faced with a critical heart condition requiring surgery, would consult a 25 year old heart surgeon? Or who among us, having a brain tumor, would want to have a 26 year old operating on us? Tens of thousands of regional airline passengers do just that each day.
The training and experience level of many of today's new hire pilots is far different from that of 30, 20, or even just 10 years ago. Thirty years ago a pilot could NOT obtain employment flying a Cessna 310 (a light 6 passenger twin engine general aviation airplane) without 3000 hours of flying time, and perhaps 250 hours of multi engine time. It simply couldn't be done. The insurance companys would not insure the airplane. So most civilian pilots became flight instructors, building time. Now, it wasn't fun, but you learn something while teaching others, especially the first 2000 hours of instruction given. Gradually you got to go along in the right seat of Aztecs, or King Airs, and maybe, just maybe, if you had a good reputation and 3000 hours, you got into charter flying in light twins, building the experience level. At that point the key became getting turbine time, usually in turbo-props like King Airs. Some of the lucky guys found jobs flying air ambulance, or with corporate operators, or as co-pilots in the flegling commuter industry.
In those days, flying for a commuter meant flying an 8 passenger Navajo Chieftan or 19 passenger turbo-prop like a Metro Liner, or Twin Otter as a copilot. Getting hired in the right seat to fly 19 passengers required 2500 to 3000 hours. Nearly all pilots who wanted to fly for the airlines had the requisite four year college degree, but obtaining that turbine Pilot in Command time was the Holy Grail. After a few years of co-pilot time, you might become a captain, again on a 19 seat airplane. To move to the big time, guys had on average between 5000 to 7000 hours, with about 2000 of that in turbine airplanes as Pilot in Command. On average, it took about 7 to 10 years of flying to get to that point; (a college degree, ATP, and 5 to 7 thousand hours with PIC turbine time.) A guy was usually about 30 years old, but a few, like Captain Phipps, managed to acquire that experience at a younger age. EVEN THEN, he was far from the left seat flying a 60,000 pound jet as pilot in command........he was just getting started as an airline copilot!
Once an airline copilot, he was supervised by captains with 20, 25, or 30 years of experience. He spent many years in the right seat watching, learning, and acquiring experience in many environmental conditions....slick runways, low visibility, in rain at night, in icing, in thunderstorms. In addition, his airline trained him with expensive and thorough training programs, going back to the simulator many times before finally upgrading to captain. On average, it took another 12 years of line flying to make captain. By then, our young man was in his forties.
When we contrast that with what we see today, the picture is disconcertingly different. Many of today's young pilots come out of schools that actively advertise "we'll take you from the street to airline co-pilot in just a few months." Often these pilots come out of these schools with 250 hours. Within a few months, and with as little as 500 hours, some of these pilots were in the right seat of jets like the Canadair RJ, or the Embraer 145. The "commuter" airlines of today operate sophisticated regional jets; none of them require more than about 1500 hours total time for new hires. Many of these young pilots upgrade in 2 or 3 years, with minimal exposure to severe winter conditions, icing, thunderstorms, contaminated runways, etc. They often find themselves in the left seat with under 3000 hours....the same point where 30 years ago you would be eligible to fly a Cessna 310!
It simply is not possible to develop the exposure to critical conditions (and under the able supervision of a well qualified captain) in just 3 or even 4 years of flying. And a significant portion of these pilots do not have a four year degree at all, let alone in a related field. A four year degree can provide an excellent foundation in meterology, high speed, high altitude aerodynamics, mechanical and electrical engineering, crew resource management, and aircraft performance. All subjects that the regional airlines don't have the time and money to adequately train for the new hire.
As a retired airline captain, I too saw this inexperience take it's toll on the quality AND SAFETY within the industry. The "regional airlines" are all about low cost structure; the training is minimal and conforms only to FAA minimums....very much like the minimums for a drivers license produce newly minted drivers with little experience. And as much as a young person hates to admit it...we know young drivers are prone to more accidents. There simply is no shortcut, no substitute for experience. The key here is that if the entry level experience is low, the training and supervision by qualified captains....read that experienced captains.....must be ratcheted up to high standards. And upgrades to captain MUST come slower, and only with APPRORIATE experience, or accidents will occur to well meaning men and women, and the general public who fly behind them.
To be sure, some regional carriers DO employ many competent and experienced pilots. To be equally sure, many do not; a crew with a combined age of 45 or so is fairly common, even in 100 seat "regional" jets like the Embrear 190. In my professional opinion, gained from 30 plus years of professional airline flying, a 25 or 26 year old pilot is not well enough seasoned to be in command of these kinds of airplanes in all conditions! I mean no disrespect to any of you out there who fit this description.
I know there will be those readers who cry "foul" at this, because after all, military pilots do fly large airplanes with only a few thousand hours. And that's true, they do....but they do it with far better, more costly training and support than the young civilian pilot has. And they have a much higher number of accidents per million flight hours. But then they have a very different mission, and a very demanding world wide operating envelope.
As a final thought, allow me to leave you with this question. Who among us, faced with a critical heart condition requiring surgery, would consult a 25 year old heart surgeon? Or who among us, having a brain tumor, would want to have a 26 year old operating on us? Tens of thousands of regional airline passengers do just that each day.
Last edited by retired captain; Jun 24, 2010 at 8:59 am Reason: spelling
