RustyC

For your sake I hope that all doesn't end up like GSO for CO back in the mid-1990s.

RustyC

I sure hope not as far as being bought by Spirit. The last thing we need is more consolidation, especially with that culture.

Using alternative airports (Orlando Sanford, ISP, Long Beach, PIE, etc.) isn't an F9 invention, but one of the problems pax often run into in these places is that car rents can ruin the deal if those are needed. Whenever you have just the 3 biggest companies there you get much worse pricing, and you can even go to 6 or 7 options and have it still pricey if they're the wrong ones.

iahphx

I' seeing plenty of $19 to $37 fares from PHL to CHS and SAV this week on Frontier. I'm guessing these routes will also be axed in the next round of schedule changes. A shame because these are the types of somewhat popular destinations that are usually too far to drive but too expensive to fly (like 2x PHL-Florida fares).

beyondhere

It'd be a shame for those routes to be cut, but at the same time, it has to compete against AA that might fare match. And routes come and go too soon from F9. Pax know to look at F9 and NK for cheap flights to MCO, but might not be well aware of these other destinations and there are low fares down there.

At ACY, Spirit doesn't have to worry about AA, but then it also loses out on a lot of potential passengers. For example, Spirit is trying ACY-MSY and it seems to be pretty low fare for the over 2 1/2 hr. long distance. I almost forgot about it, but came across it again when it showed up as a connection to somewhere else. The fares are pretty low for right now sometimes less than a week out, that I'd guess it's not performing well and likely another failed ACY route in the works. NK would have likely done better restoring ACY-ORD this summer, or maybe offering MSY from PHL, but I'd give Spirit credit for adding it and giving it a run.

CHS/SAV and MSY are leisure but are niche relative to MCO/FLL/TPA. I actually booked a ticket on ACY-MSY and then 10k UA miles on MSY-IAH. The UA mile redemption is high, and fares to Houston are so expensive out of Philly. The major Texas markets DFW and IAH are markets that need more ULCC and there is enough people going back and forth between PHL and Texas. F9 has less than daily service, but taking a red-eye on IAH-PHL isn't my cup of tea. The westbound flight seems to be doing well. It's sold out this weekend.

iahphx

Spirit doesn't seem particularly successful at ACY, but their operation "lingers." I guess the problem is population density, and there's little reason (most of the time) for Philadelphians to make the trip out there. Still, this has been the situation for years, and Spirit hasn't pulled the plug, so ACY must be at least marginally profitable.

I truly doubt there is enough traffic for a ULCC from PHL to CHS and SAV but if these routes don't work, how many will? Obviously, the Central and South Florida routes have virtually unlimited demand at the right price. But Frontier seems to be taking a seasonal approach to these routes from Philly, only flying them at peak times. If Florida only works at peak, there's no way CHS and SAV will work at all.

Frontier has introduced a bunch of Texas routes form PHL, but I have no idea how well they do. Obviously, there are a lot of people in the big Texas cities and without Frontier or Spirit, those flights are going to be expensive. So they can certainly stimulate demand at lower fares, but they can also get into trouble when the big boys match. I've bought a $100 roundtrip fare on UA from IAH to PHL in the past year, and I don't think the cheapest Basic Economy fares are much more expensive now.

beyondhere

Last minute fares on United's PHL-IAH are quite expensive. Of course, it's the summer - peak season, but if I want to fly any day next week on a nonstop, and book a one-way, it's $718, on any of UA or AA's nonstops. WN doesn't price competitive out of PHL to HOU. One has to look at BWI. For those that don't want to trek to BWI or EWR, but originate from PHL - F9 should be able to profitably fill seats on the westbound when UA and AA have a highway robbery fare. F9's return is an uncomfortable red-eye, with a 4am arrival in PHL. The fare for this Wednesday night (8/1) is $39. But, F9 operates a daytime AUS-PHL and it's fares are higher and likely performing well. The SAT-PHL flight was an early flight, but it appears to be changing to a late afternoon flight in August.

One has to book much in advance to get United's Basic Economy. On my ACY-MSY flight, I think there were a number of passengers who were connecting to DFW and the flight was 90-95% full. I don't know if it makes it profitable, but many of Spirit's flights are connection friendly to a few markets. e.g. if I go on Spirit's site, and check ACY to DFW, there are typically 2 decent 1 connection flights and fares under $150 on most days to stimulate some travel between the markets. With F9's website and network out of PHL and TTN, it's almost impossible to find one stop itineries aside from DEN connections.

iahphx

I'm not surprised that's UA's strategy. The idea is undoubtedly to hurt Frontier with the leisure crowd, but assume that there are very few business travellers who will fly them. Still, given the population density at both ends, this may be a route that could work for both airlines. At $718, you're likely flying F9 if it's your own money.

beyondhere

Unfortunately, F9 doesn't really try to make the route work. Less than daily is fine and it flies under the UA/AA's radar a bit, but the red-eye 4am arrival is unpopular enough that the route can only work when the travel season is at it's highest peak.

I figured the eastbound flight wouldn't work after Labor Day, but F9 is actually discontinuing the route on 8/11. The say F9 is seasonal, but F9 finds a way to shrink the already short summer season.

Tino

I ask this question every few months, and have yet to find an answer. How can you find out Frontier's actual city-to-city routes? Is there a schedule that they have to submit to the DOT?

The website is completely wrong. Some "city pairs" that they say exist do not, and others are East Coast city/DEN/East Coast city, which is worthless. You literally have to type in every potential city pair and check the calendar to see if the flight even exists.

Why do they hate their customers?

Edit: I just found a city-pair that they fly TO, but not BACK (TPA-MCI). I'm not joking. Do they have drunken monkeys throwing darts at a map?

croberts134

I can't vouch for its accuracy but I found this:

https://flights.flyfrontier.com/en/sitemap/city-to-city-flights/page-1

When do you see TPA to MCI but not returning? It was seasonal last winter but I can't find it back in their future schedule at all.

rsteinmetz70112

Many smaller airlines have service only one way from some cities at some times. It's usually because there are no "legal" connections. The cities change as the schedules get updated. You can find them on Southwest for foreign destinations all the time.

Tino

Try to book the Tampa to Kansas City flight, either on their website or their app and you will see what I mean. You can fly there, but the flights vanish when you try to return.

The list that the previous poster provided from their website is completely inaccurate and does not show the actual flights.

Example 1 is Tampa to Nashville. It does not exist. The remaining flights are not actually City to City flights. A vast majority of them require you to fly to a hub city, stay overnight and then fly to another city the next day.

My question, yet again, is how to determine where Frontier planes actually fly. I cannot find an actual source of that information.

beyondhere

Just check wikipedia and verify from the airline website. For example, google wikipedia PHX and it will show all the destinations that Frontier and Spirit fly out of the PHX airport. And then verify from the airline website.

iahphx

Yeah, I use wikipedia as my first tool when I'm trying to figure out where airlines fly. It's not just Frontier that makes this difficult. Like a simple question of which European cities DL flies to from JFK is not easily answered on Delta's website. I have no idea why. Southwest at least lets you toggle over your city to find nonstop and connecting routes. This seems like a no-brainer thing. I guess some of the folks who design airline websites are bad with geography.

beyondhere

At least with Delta at JFK, you kind of know it's going to be covering European markets of high popularity to lesser popularity. With Frontier at certain markets, it's guesswork. From Philly, Frontier doesn't offer Vegas, Chicago, Atlanta - but it tried Birmingham, Madison and Grand Rapids! I got to say BHM as a destination choice from PHL was the most poorest of destination choices. But it was amusing but it's kind of like negating some the good will it has built up on the 2-3x daily PHL-MCO by offering crapshoot markets as new destinations to complement it.