iahphx

I got an email today offering 99% off flights to Florida. They weren't really 99% off, because Frontier calculates fares in an "interesting" way, but if you could fly on a random Tuesday, there were some crazy fares available.

This follows a rash of other recent remarkable discounts. Fly for $25, 75% off, etc.

I can't help but think this is no way to build a business. Frontier seems like the airline that you might fly if one of their crazy fares "works" for you, but that you wouldn't otherwise consider. Kind of the airline for extra discretionary travel.

I'm skeptical this is a business, but we'll see.

bajrbajr

Frontier calculates their discount BEFORE taxes and government imposed fees... fees that they are surely not allowed to discount.

As for their business model, it seems to work for other airlines such as Spirit and Ryan Air. Besides, there are countless full-fare airlines that couldn't make their business model work.

iahphx

Frontier also charges "fees" that have nothing to do with the gov't. They're not really fees at all.

Under new management (AirTran's former CEO is now in charge), Spirit has actually moved away from "fire sales." There are no "save 75% off" fares at Spirit these days. They certainly have some low fares, but are not doing the type of nutty promotions that Frontier is offering.

rsteinmetz70112

Part of the reason for doing it this way is that "fares" are subject to 7.5% excise tax, but "fees" aren't. By playing this game they can charge less for the total price, which they have to disclose.

bajrbajr

Yea... they are the CIC fees, or "Carrier Interface Charge" which is just an internet-booking fee.
I avoid this by purchasing many of my tickets are the airport counter.
Its kinda funny that the major airlines charge more to purchase a ticket at the airport, but Frontier (and Spirit I think) charge less at the airport.

klanfa

Actually there are % off sales at Spirit, appearing about once a week.

iahphx

Yeah, they obviously don't WANT you to go to the airport to buy the tickets, but Spirit seems to have figured out this was a way to legally add the tax-free (for them) fee and Frontier has copied them. Obviously, not many people do their ticketing at the airport, so the airline comes out ahead.

Buying tickets at the airport isn't always so easy, though. This summer, I had an extra hour to kill at the airport and I was going to buy my family some really cheap Spirit tickets (really cheap once I removed the fees). I even checked in advance to make sure there were no flights leaving around that time, so the counter would be quiet. But when I got to the counter, it was pure chaos, with dozens and dozens of people on line. Spirit was having some irregular ops that day. There was no way I was going to stand on an endless line (instead of sitting in an airport lounge), so I bailed. It turned out to be a good thing, though, because a few days later WN matched the fare; with my WN Companion card, it turned out to be about the same cost, and I got to avoid flying Spirit!

Right, but until recently, they weren't things like 75% off.

beyondhere

iahphx- You are probably better off unsubscribing from Frontier's emails. I still receive them but I'm also close to unsubscribing, since it just ends to piquing my interest but I find out it's restrictive, the catches and thus useless majority of the time.

I tend to go with Spirit anyways, since it has a better network out of PHL/ACY, PIT, ATL and DFW, where I typically originate out from. Frontier wants to spread itself all over the country (claiming it serves 90% of the country), but just a few routes here and there in many markets, and has stagnated in markets where it really pushed itself as a ULCC.

I also try to buy tickets at the airport counter, but I tend to go with Spirit as mentioned, but similar idea. With Spirit though, it's $21 checked bag cost (as I'm a $9 Fare Club member) if bought online at time of ticket purchase. I have to consider that if I need to take a bag, sometimes the airport counter savings (if a bag is needed) is minimal.

Like what iahphx mentioned, there are times also the Spirit ticket counter is incredibly busy, while usually not. Once I was in DFW ready to buy a ticket, but the line was long. At PHL, I can get parking at Terminal E for $4 and typically make it in/out in 30 minutes. ACY has free parking for the first 30 mins or so, but it's ticket sales counter closes at 6pm.

bajrbajr

I have Frontier's "elite status." which gives me a free full-sized carry-on bag, and free advanced seat assignments.

For me, the limited networks is the biggest drawback to the LCCs. My travels are typically from CLE to LAS, PHX and MCO... all serviced NS by Frontier.
I only fly Frontier or Spirit if it is a NS route... and I allow an extra day at the end of my trips to ensure getting home in time to get back to work.

I did have an excellent experience with Frontier during hurricane Irma a couple weeks ago, A relative called me at 2AM the day before Irma was supposed to roll through Orlando. I was able to snag her the last 2 seats at the low mileage redemption price to get her and her friend out of Orlando that morning.

I will also add that I have found Frontier front-line staff to be much more friendly and accommodating than any of the three remaining US legacy carriers.

iahphx

It will be interesting to see what happens to Frontier. I don't think they have the critical mass to survive by themselves, so I guess the most likely outcome is still a sale to Spirit. But Spirit may not be doing too well here, either -- check out their stock price. "Basic Economy," while a bad product for consumers, seems like pure genius to me as a way for the legacies to damage Frontier and Spirit. The next year or so will be critical to see if the USA ULCCs can "deal with" this new competitive threat. I don't think the 99% off sales are the solution. After you've run a few of those, what's left -- totally free flights, where you just pay some ancillary fees?

Orwaid

Hi -

iahphx, that is exactly the Ryanair model during off-peak periods. Give the ticket away for free, then make a few $$ on all the add-ons.

I have flown PDX-DEN for $38.40 RT during a "$1 fare" sale with only a bag under the seat. Can't really beat that.

RustyC

There's just too much bait-and-switch mentality on advertising vs. actual fares, as if it's an article of faith in the industry that you just have to advertise something that looks way too good to be true, and then not deliver it.

The DOT rules about all-in pricing from the Obama administration were a big step forward to discouraging a fee-ing frenzy by making sure they're "outed" earlier in the process, but that's under attack from airline interests, natch.

With the fare structure with Frontier you have both the (real) government-imposed costs and the (invented) airline-imposed ones not subject to the percent discounts, so what's left for the fare in some cases is "low" to begin with and 90% off doesn't do much to change it.

OTOH, September and October are good times to get really good deals if you're very date-flexible, so even though it's not really 90% or 99% off, the all-in fares sometimes still can be impressive. I saw Beck and U2 in Phoenix last week at $74 ATL-PHX-ATL, the LAS RTs (ATL-LAS-ATL) have gone as low as $58 a-i, and even ones requiring connections like ATL-PDX-ATL have come in at $107 or so RT. Plus all the other unbundled fees you hit, of course.

The legacies and their cartel pricing have given the ULCCs much more breathing space than they would have been allowed in times past. AA has been most aggressive about responding. I have a really hard time seeing DL able to match fares on a full basic-economy rollout.

iahphx

I cancelled a WN reservation today and booked Frontier because they were willing to fly me 1200 miles nonstop for $19. I don't think this is that unusual: they seem to have a ton of close-in off-peak fares for almost nothing. I suppose they think they can make a little money selling ancillary stuff. I would think at least half the folks who buy these are gamers and know the drill, and ancillary revenue will be thin. I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem like much of a business to me. How much of $19 do they even get to keep? My original WN fare was $83, which seemed cheap.

GrayAnderson

I've heard at least one story where Ryanair actually priced some tickets below taxes and fees (I remember O'Leary commenting about "paying you to fly with me" and thinking "You probably couldn't pay me enough").

The rub is that Spirit and Allegiant, in particular, suffer from such a thin route network that if things go wrong...boy do they go wrong. I've seen a few stories about folks getting cascaded by multiple days due to a flight cancellation, for example (and there's no real US equivalent to the EU protection that has sort-of kept bad behavior by the ULCCs there in check). If I had to guess, when executed properly this is the biggest threat from Basic Economy products to them: Similar pricing but without the probability of service going to hell in the same way (e.g. a passable chance of being able to get where you need to go if you're on the ball with IRROPS).

rsteinmetz70112

I think the scare stories of IRROPS are somewhat over blown. The ULCCs have about the same cancellation rates as every other airline and in some cases have actually bought their passengers tickets on other airlines. Spirit has significantly improved their operational reliability. Frontier has generally been pretty reliable after some rocky months after their purchase by Indigo. Allegiant I have no experience with.

In my case I take the chance and if necessary will book a walk up fare on another airline to get home, but I've never had to. I could probably book that replacement using credit card points of FF miles, but in any event I'm positive I'm so far ahead that I will still be ahead if it ever happens.