point taken
 

I didn't fact check myself on this one. I thought the WM(T) and WN made a good point on how similar the companies strategies are.

I agree that you don't have to pay money to either Wal-Mart or Southwest if you don't want to. That is the great thing about America and competition between companies keeps things better. That is why Russia and Aeroflot was a bad way to go.

What confuses me is why you would pay $4 for a box of Cheez-it Crackers at Safeway when that EXACT same box is $2.50 at Wal-Mart? Once in a while, when Safeway is closer than Wal-Mart, and you save the gas, sure, I get it. On a routine basis? Safeway's store really is that much prettier than Wal-Mart's and that really adds value to you? Safeway's staff really is that much more helpful?

Likewise, Southwest's coach seat is pretty much the same as Frontier's coach seat (especially now that Frontier went to leather, like Southwest).

Web site www.SeatGuru.com reports 32-33" of seat pitch for Southwest vs. 32" of seat pitch on Frontier (31" on an ERJ). Seat width is 17" at Southwest and 18" at Frontier. Note that there is extra pitch and width on Southwest at rows 11 and 12 including the most coveted 11E and 12F.

Yes, Frontier has that DirectTV screen in front of you. Is it worth an extra $30 each way plus the $5.99 they charge for DirectTV to watch TV? That is a personal decision. Maybe for you it is. It isn't for me. Paying $36 to watch a couple of hours of TV? I'm confused, especially when you say "Free your mind and throw a brick through your TV" Don't throw a brick at the Frontier DirectTV -- I don't think Frontier would like that. I think you might even be greeted by the TSA or other police at your destination. (What is the policy for carrying on bricks? :D)

Add to that $36 the probability of a change times the change fee. So if you change 1 out of 5 flights and the change fee is $100, that is an extra $20 per flight. Now is DirectTV worth $56? (If you frequently do same day changes, then yes, add the probability of same day changes times the upcharge from "Wanna-get-Away" fare to full fare to Southwest's price)

Checking a second bag? Add $25. Now is DirectTV worth $81?

Add another $3 for a full bottle of coke that you have to bring on board (Frontier only gives a cup or two) At another $2-4 for snacks you have to bring on board.

Now, going DEN-BIL? Sure, take Frontier. I wouldn't go to GEG and drive it. I don't even think WN has DEN-GEG non-stop.

Flying enough to non-Southwest cities that using Frontier a few times when you could have gone with Southwest so you get Ascent/Summit status? OK, I get that. (I believe that Summit status even eliminates the change fee) But flying mostly with Frontier on Southwest routes (e.g. DEN-LAS) and staying with Frontier, because they have cute animals on their tails? I don't get that.

Assigned seating? OK, I get that to some degree. But, having a higher probability of an open middle? That is as close to first class as you can get on either WN or F9. On WN I can work around the open vs. assigned seating thing either by checking in 24 hours before the flight or getting on the A-list. With A-list, I've got a good shot at those exit rows that are reserved for only the most elite (Summit or 1P/1K at United) The new Southwest boarding procedure (started in Nov 2007) eliminates the cattle call at the gate. Both airlines still have a certain degree of "gate lice" that try to board in the first group when they are assigned group 3 or group C.

One thing that really soured me on Frontier was the Christmas 2006 big snow storm mess. I offered Frontier a chance to fly me out early before the storm. United was already giving free changes. But not Frontier. As one Frontier agent told me "we are not United." Southwest sold me a last minute ticket for virtually the same price as a 4-month advance purchase on Frontier. Full story: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=643396 End result: Frontier lost about $400 of revenue and Southwest gained $400 of revenue. Would have booked with Southwest originally but they weren't flying non-stop at that time on that city pair. They are now. Odds are very high Southwest will be getting my business this Christmas. I'll be booking that on June 26, when the schedule opens for Southwest, confident that if there should be any price decreases, Southwest will give me a ticketless travel funds refund (as opposed to Frontier, who, if they drop the price, won't give any refund at all).

If how the company pays its employees is a factor in the Wal-Mart/Safeway decision, then the edge goes to Southwest, who, according to a pilot on the United FT board, pays its 737 pilots 40% more than United. The pilot has your life in his hands -- the Wal-Mart/Safeway employee, at most, has your eggs.

According to http://airlinepilotcentral.com/ a Frontier captain with 5 years of experience makes $133 an hour. A United A320 or 737 captain with 5 years of experience makes $127 an hour. A Southwest captain with 5 years experience makes $183 an hour. (As an aside, a United 747/777 captain with 5 years experience makes $180 an hour -- $3 an hour less than a Southwest 737 captain!) I can't speak to the differences in the benefit packages, although I would think that both have health insurance. United might, at one time, have had a better pension package, although they have to stay in business to give that, otherwise, the pension system reverts to the minimum payments guaranteed by the PBGC. A pilot could do deferred comp of that extra $50 per hour and likely be a lot better off.

I heard today from some extremely reliable sources that Frontier is going to cease ops within the next two weeks and file for Chapter 7 BK. I heard that they have been working on the Golden Parachutes for upper management and possibly some sort of restituion for the hourly employees.

Joe

Interesting first post. Odd that they would reaffirm ALL their aircraft leases and catch up on all the payments while simultaneously working on their "golden parachutes" and preparing a shutdown. http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_9544950.

Oh those crafty devils at Frontier. Not only did they reaffirm all their aicraft contracts, they also reached a new deal with their credit card processor.http://www.denverpost.com/airlines/ci_9428158 I guess it was all an elaborate hoax to make it look like they were making progress on their bankruptcy issues to cover up the fact that they were cleaning out the till to fund their "golden parachutes" and preparing to lock the doors. We are so fortunate to have reliable inside information on this board from first time posters so that we do not fall for this corporate charade.

Shutting down during the summer travel season would be unprecedented, wouldn't it? Although I suppose at today's fuel prices and today's ticket prices, it's possible that airlines can't make money even in the summer. Especially since summer travelers are low fare seeking leisure travelers, and summer travel tickets are sold (and the prices set) months earlier.

Today's equation is different: airlines cannot survive without a heavy percentage of high-fare business travelers. And today's load factors are high all year. So the old rule about summer being the time to make the whole year's profit may not apply.

Oil prices are up again this morning. It's a complete nightmare for airlines. Anything is possible, except, it seems, making a profit.

This seems to be a favorite question of the OP.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=811958

Or maybe he has some short positions.

Well I have 3 independent very reliable sources. If I am wrong, I am wrong but I dont believe that will be the case! Southwest is getting to ramp up big time at DIA and they are going to be opening up a lot of maintenance positions in the very near future as well! I will be the first to say sorry if I was wrong and maybe the dates will be off by a few weeks with my timing but I am sure some of you will be eating crow very soon!

Joe

Eating crow? Why? I do not purport to know the future. All I am doing is presenting the reported facts concerning the Frontier banruptcy, with links to the sources. Since you are a new poster and we have absolutely no way to evaluate the credibility of your unidentified sources, I will stick with what is publicly reported and verifiable rather than rumors.

In most workplaces, the office grapevine is more reliable than official statements. YMMV.

FCFree, you miss a very important factor in the assigned seating debate. Regardless of checking in 24-hours early or getting automatic A-List, you need to be in the gate area by the time they begin boarding, or you lose those benefits. Now, with assigned seating, I target my trip to the airport to arrive at the gate about 5 minutes prior to boarding. And yes, with the number of trips I make a year, I have gotten very good at getting there exactly then, and I have not missed a single flight for the past three years of this strategy. However, there is normal variation to take into account (traffic, accidents, long lines somewhere there is no Clear, or other factors) which sometimes result in me being 15 or even 20 minutes later. If I were flying WN, I would need to target my every arrival 20 or 30 minutes earlier, to avoid getting stuck in a middle seat. Is the additional time that I can spend at my office or with loved ones worth the prices you quoted above (actually much less, since Summit has no change fees?). If you saw my bill rate (or my girlfriend), you would understand.

Seriously, the collective seagulling (look it up) on this board by this bunch of Southwest fliers really speaks towards the type of people who fly that airline, and the reason why I don't. When your planes were grounded, your pilots drunk, or your thongs exposed and subsequently tossed off, I don't recall filling the SW message board with threads of speculation and disparaging comments. We get it. You don't like Frontier (or any airline other than SW, really). You hope they shut down so SW can grab some of the business. Now really, is it worth lodging your opinion so loudly for some random people on Flyertalk to hear so that you gain some "made them eat crow" points over folks whom you will never actually meet in real life if the dice-roll comes out in your favor? Seriously...

I'm going to go for a bike ride and enjoy the real world for the evening.

Probably shorting the stock.

That's an excellent point, well explained. I cut my arrival at the gate as closely as you described. On Southwest, this means that sometimes I end up boarding last, just as you said. I accept that disadvantage and rationalize that the increased speed of boarding without assigned seating saves me time in the long run. But I'm not really sure that it does.

Nicely explained, although you left out enough variables that I'm not sure whether or not your conclusions are correct.

If your Summit (& 2P) status gets you the type of seat you want, close enough to the front of the plane that you're not taking the time you saved in getting to the plane and wasting most of it in disembarking, then your analysis is probably correct for your situation. I also don't know the variability (standard deviation) of your line wait times at DIA or the other variables in your trek to the airport - an analysis of these variables would make a great math project! One other point - if you get to a Southwest gate 5 minutes after (pre-) boarding has commenced, i.e. 10 minutes late by your scenario if I am reading you correctly, an "A" boarding pass-holder (available to anyone who checks in early enough, read more on the WN board if you want more details) should still be able to board early enough to avoid a middle seat on all but the most full flights.

One last side-note: While I agree that there are several "Rah, Rah, WN" folks on FT, and even a very few "all airlines except WN should die" types, not all of us who value the Southwest product denigrate the rest of the airline industry. I have had good to excellent flights in the past year on AirTran, United (P.S.), Taca, and Air Canada, not to mention an upcoming trip on Continental and a great Circle Pacific trip last year in C on Air New Zealand, Thai Air, and Singapore Air. I have no direct experience with F9; those of my friends who have flown Frontier think very highly of them, so I am inclined to wish them well.

HPN - I apologize if I seemed to imply that all those who fly WN are cut from the same cloth of "wishing ill" to the other airlines... I agree that it's likely a vocal minority. I have not personally tried them because of the reasons I've explained above, and because I wish to support Frontier due to many years of great service and good experiences... I do think that the TV show "Airline" likely did WN a dis-service by emphasizing the experiences of "problem" passangers (though it did show plenty of others), in making it seem that they are more common on WN. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's the perception that I see.