FCFree, you miss a very important factor in the assigned seating debate. Regardless of checking in 24-hours early or getting automatic A-List, you need to be in the gate area by the time they begin boarding, or you lose those benefits. Now, with assigned seating, I target my trip to the airport to arrive at the gate about 5 minutes prior to boarding. And yes, with the number of trips I make a year, I have gotten very good at getting there exactly then, and I have not missed a single flight for the past three years of this strategy. However, there is normal variation to take into account (traffic, accidents, long lines somewhere there is no Clear, or other factors) which sometimes result in me being 15 or even 20 minutes later. If I were flying WN, I would need to target my every arrival 20 or 30 minutes earlier, to avoid getting stuck in a middle seat. Is the additional time that I can spend at my office or with loved ones worth the prices you quoted above (actually much less, since Summit has no change fees?). If you saw my bill rate (or my girlfriend), you would understand.

Seriously, the collective seagulling (look it up) on this board by this bunch of Southwest fliers really speaks towards the type of people who fly that airline, and the reason why I don't. When your planes were grounded, your pilots drunk, or your thongs exposed and subsequently tossed off, I don't recall filling the SW message board with threads of speculation and disparaging comments. We get it. You don't like Frontier (or any airline other than SW, really). You hope they shut down so SW can grab some of the business. Now really, is it worth lodging your opinion so loudly for some random people on Flyertalk to hear so that you gain some "made them eat crow" points over folks whom you will never actually meet in real life if the dice-roll comes out in your favor? Seriously...

I'm going to go for a bike ride and enjoy the real world for the evening.

Probably shorting the stock.

That's an excellent point, well explained. I cut my arrival at the gate as closely as you described. On Southwest, this means that sometimes I end up boarding last, just as you said. I accept that disadvantage and rationalize that the increased speed of boarding without assigned seating saves me time in the long run. But I'm not really sure that it does.

Nicely explained, although you left out enough variables that I'm not sure whether or not your conclusions are correct.

If your Summit (& 2P) status gets you the type of seat you want, close enough to the front of the plane that you're not taking the time you saved in getting to the plane and wasting most of it in disembarking, then your analysis is probably correct for your situation. I also don't know the variability (standard deviation) of your line wait times at DIA or the other variables in your trek to the airport - an analysis of these variables would make a great math project! One other point - if you get to a Southwest gate 5 minutes after (pre-) boarding has commenced, i.e. 10 minutes late by your scenario if I am reading you correctly, an "A" boarding pass-holder (available to anyone who checks in early enough, read more on the WN board if you want more details) should still be able to board early enough to avoid a middle seat on all but the most full flights.

One last side-note: While I agree that there are several "Rah, Rah, WN" folks on FT, and even a very few "all airlines except WN should die" types, not all of us who value the Southwest product denigrate the rest of the airline industry. I have had good to excellent flights in the past year on AirTran, United (P.S.), Taca, and Air Canada, not to mention an upcoming trip on Continental and a great Circle Pacific trip last year in C on Air New Zealand, Thai Air, and Singapore Air. I have no direct experience with F9; those of my friends who have flown Frontier think very highly of them, so I am inclined to wish them well.

HPN - I apologize if I seemed to imply that all those who fly WN are cut from the same cloth of "wishing ill" to the other airlines... I agree that it's likely a vocal minority. I have not personally tried them because of the reasons I've explained above, and because I wish to support Frontier due to many years of great service and good experiences... I do think that the TV show "Airline" likely did WN a dis-service by emphasizing the experiences of "problem" passangers (though it did show plenty of others), in making it seem that they are more common on WN. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's the perception that I see.

I'm a fan of all airlines that treat their customers well. Frontier is obviously in that category or they would not have won a Freddie. (Plenty of programs have never come anywhere near earning a Freddie.)

As to A&E's Airline show, I have no idea where they found those people. I saw the filming crew at LAX several times, but in over 1000 flights I have never seen anything like the incidents on the show. YMMV, but there's nothing less real than a reality show. They'd never want to show how I fly week after week and the early morning flights operate like clockwork, at 99%+ on time.

I do not feel that I am completely "Rah, Rah WN".

The recent (November 2007) change that WN made to the boarding process was a huge improvement. I agree that before Nov 2007 you did have to show up significantly before boarding began if you wanted to get the best seat. However, even then, if you had an "A" boarding pass (by doing 24 hour check-in), you were going to be one of the first 45 to board, thus getting a window or aisle of your choice.

But, the Nov 2007 improvement to the boarding process changed all that. Now, if you show up 5 minutes before the boarding time and you've got boarding pass A-18, then you are in the 18th position to board. In fact, that will be within the first 5-10 to board, because I have not yet seen a flight where they have sold all 15 of the Business Select reserved slots, who get A-1 through A-15. There might be 1 or 2 Business Select passengers, then the numbering starts at A-16 so A-18 would likely be the 5th to board, not counting the pre-boards.

Getting a low boarding number results in very early boarding and therefore the best selection of seats. Granted, if you've got A-21 and someone else has A-18, that other person may take your most preferred seat. If Frontier *always* assigns you your most preferred seat, then that is an advantage over the "risk" of having to take something slightly less.

If you are holding an "A" boarding pass and you show up 5 minutes before boarding starts, I don't see how you could get a middle seat (unless you select it yourself). Now, if you show up 15 minutes before departure, and boarding began as it should 20 minutes before departure, then yes, there are risks that you are boarding in the B or C groups. In that case, Frontier would be better as your assigned seat is saved until 10 minutes before departure -- pretty much a standard on all airlines.

Also, as I said above, you can't fly Southwest to places they don't go, and I wouldn't compromise by flying to a city 100, 200 or 300 miles from my destination and driving the rest of the way. Better to take Frontier, United or whoever and land close to the place you need to be. Agreed that time is money and time with family/friends/loved ones is even more valuable.

And, if you've made SUMMIT status and keep it, then the change fee argument goes away. I think that is a key difference. My total flying is not 25,000 miles per year, therefore, I won't get to SUMMIT status. Even if I do hit 25,000 miles, it would be impossible to do exclusively on Frontier, but it is possible on Southwest. However, that clearly is because of my flying patterns. Everyone's patterns are different.

My 32 segments with Southwest (getting A-list) are the result of some segments where Frontier doesn't go (LAS-RNO, for example). Just like Southwest doesn't do DEN-BIL, so too does Frontier not do LAS-RNO. Also, Southwest has some non-stops (e.g. LAS-ABQ) that Frontier doesn't have (it would have to be LAS-DEN-ABQ on F9).

One thing that is cool about Southwest is that they give you all of these "perks" even if you have no status with them. There is the minor inconvienence of the 24-hour check-in if you are not A-list. But, they are still serving drinks and snacks and two bags are still free. You don't have to "pay your dues" for the first year until you hit that SUMMIT status. But, I will grant you that SUMMIT status is far better than 2P status on United, which doesn't buy you much at all.

I do not mean to imply that Frontier is "wrong" or "bad." But, what if they offered some of the SUMMIT perks to everyone, not just the SUMMIT members? Might that not attract some more customers? I personally think it is Southwest's excellent treatment of the less than 15,000 mile per year flyers that keeps them profitable for years and years, which in turn let them get their fuel hedges which in turn is what keeps them profitable.

Interesting comment concerning "Airline" and the perceptions. By the size of WN vs. F9 it seems to me that finding those "problem" pax would be easy vs. F9 and their Pax numbers. I fly WN almost every week and have never seen the issues I see on Airline.
I am flying F9 much more this year than at any other time, made Summit last month. Frankly on some routes I fly they have been much cheaper than WN. Service is good, aircraft nice and clean etc. But it is hard to beat the Rapid Rewards program and Companion Pass deal on WN and prefer it over F9's program. The debate of assigned seating vs. A-List? I take F9 any day for seating and boarding. WN's problem is enforcement of A-list benefit's.

No problem; no apology necessary. There's a great quote along the lines of it being much easier to defend one's argument against an opponent as compared to defending rude behavior of those supporting one's argument. I agree with nsx that any company which treats its customers well is worthy of support; your comments are further (albeit circumstantial) evidence that F9 is such a company. Maybe some day I'll get the chance to try them out for myself.

I like Frontier and flew them a few times. But to dump WN and say they are absolute worst, is ludicrous.

Every airline charges change fees except WN. Their seating has been a vast improvement. In fact I disliked their earlier seating arrangements, that I avoided flying them for a long time and flew on CO or F9 instead for flights to DEN from Houston.

I now fly WN sometimes and dont want to be stuck on F9 with Chap 7 hanging over them.

I do have vested interested in F9 (I own stock and it is pretty much worthless), I hope they prosper, but things look bleak.

the by-line
 

FC Free: I will admit that I have not flown WN since 2001 so I cannot comment on those things that have changed since then. The A-B-C seating hasn't changed, it's just been refined with additional numbering. If you show up late or don't check in precisely when check in starts, you are still stuck with B or C cards/numbers sitting in a middle seat between two people who may smell like a sewer or a bar at 2 AM. The fact that there are collective seagulls at all airlines only makes matters worse at WN as they take seats that A and early B numbers should have. At other airlines, they just get kicked out of seats by those assigned to them.
I don't wish WN to go into bk unlike WM(T), I just am not going to stand for "rah rah WN" chat on the F9 boards when I think WN provides inferior service. WN has a place, it's just not mine. To be honest, I don't even check WN's fares so I wouldn't have a clue what they charge nor do I care.
Flying F9 out of DEN is often point to point for me so WN usually isn't a player. If WN offers a point to point and F9 doesn't, it would bear consideration but, for me, it would only be a small consideration. If I'm plunking down money for transportation, I'd prefer to spend that time as relaxed as possible. My prior experience with WN was not relaxed.

My by-line refers mostly to the flavors of TV available and the fact that too many Americans get their news solely from TV. The 24-hr news channels have turned us into raving idiots hyped up on whatever minutia happened that day. Most of the extra cable channels (MTV, Travel, HGTV, DIY to name a few) offer only 30 to 60 minute infomercials feeding uber-consumer culture. The "spend money or the terrorists win" mantra of 2001-2003 ruined this country and reduced a significant number of people to little more than a wallet and the stimulus-response mechanism of a microbe. I don't have a hatred of TV or DirecTV but people really need to reduce their exposure time and studies show that it rots their brain (search for studies linking TV hours to Alzheimers). We'd be a much calmer, happier, healthier, and wealthier society for it.

the by-line
 

FC Free: I will admit that I have not flown WN since 2001 so I cannot comment on those things that have changed since then. The A-B-C seating hasn't changed, it's just been refined with additional numbering. If you show up late or don't check in precisely when check in starts, you are still stuck with B or C cards/numbers sitting in a middle seat between two people who may smell like a sewer or a bar at 2 AM. The fact that there are collective seagulls at all airlines only makes matters worse at WN as they take seats that A and early B numbers should have. At other airlines, they just get kicked out of seats by those assigned to them.
I don't wish WN to go into bk unlike WM(T), I just am not going to stand for "rah rah WN" chat on the F9 boards when I think WN provides inferior service. WN has a place, it's just not mine. To be honest, I don't even check WN's fares so I wouldn't have a clue what they charge nor do I care.
Flying F9 out of DEN is often point to point for me so WN usually isn't a player. If WN offers a point to point and F9 doesn't, it would bear consideration but, for me, it would only be a small consideration. If I'm plunking down money for transportation, I'd prefer to spend that time as relaxed as possible. My prior experience with WN was not relaxed.

My by-line refers mostly to the flavors of TV available and the fact that too many Americans get their news solely from TV. The 24-hr news channels have turned us into raving idiots hyped up on whatever minutia happened that day. Most of the extra cable channels (MTV, Travel, HGTV, DIY to name a few) offer only 30 to 60 minute infomercials feeding uber-consumer culture. The "spend money or the terrorists win" mantra of 2001-2003 ruined this country and reduced a significant number of people to little more than a wallet and the stimulus-response mechanism of a microbe. I don't have a hatred of TV or DirecTV but people really need to reduce their exposure time and studies show that it rots their brain (search for studies linking TV hours to Alzheimers). We'd be a much calmer, happier, wealthier and probablyh

Please explain the intellect in the above comment. Are you suggesting when Southwest began 37 years ago, before Walmart was nationwide, WN said lets get an international airline body to choose a airline designation to come close to an Arkansas retail store.

Note on missing boarding. WN does not start boarding until about 15 minutes before flight leaves. Its about 10 minutes before A starts boarding after wheelchairs and preboards. If you can't make it to the gate by 10 minutes before boarding on the "other guys" your seat is cancelled. On WN they are just starting boarding

That's got to vary based upon city and load on the flight, doesn't it? I understand if it's a half-full flight to somewhere where folks don't carry-on a lot of luggage, but c'mon, I know that "scrum" boarding is fast but for a full flight there's no way you can board a plane in 10 minutes with carry-ons...

WN flights don't stay on the ground long, roughly 30 minutes. Many of the passengers on typical flights are through passengers, so unless its the first flight of the day half the plane my already be boarded before the flight. With 30 minutes it takes about 20 minutes to deplane, clean plane, clean restrooms, pre-boards and cater before boarding, leaving about 10 minutes to board.

And being that WN sell more full fare tickets than any airline, most of the travelers are travel for business not "scrum" whatever that is

I don't think the term "scrum" was meant to describe the type of people; I believe it was meant to describe the boarding style:

Scrum= "A disordered or confused situation involving a number of people"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scrum

Scrum
 

Scrum refers to the standard start of a rugby play where huge guys not wearing pads fight over possession of an oversized ball much similar to an American football. Comments about Texans and football aside, boarding the WN flight in AMA seven years ago was a scrum. I'm sure that some but maybe not all WN flights still are scrums getting on and off the plane. As for using WN for business, I'm sure that many small business owners do as they are responsible for paying their own airfare and cannot easily pass though travel costs to customers. However, those that can (ie. client is billed for travel) likely do not fly WN as it is hassle.

IF you read my prior posts (I don't think you did), you will see that my explanation of WN and WM(T) referred to the way the organizations have structured their marketing and pricing. Pricing first, Pricing second, Pricing always. If WN had the same level of service as WM(T), I doubt they'd be allowed to fly planes as they'd use cheap Chinese duct tape to hold the wings to the fuselage and have crap filled, 2 week old diapers littering the seat back pockets. I admit WN has some standards, albiet some of the lowest in the industry.

Just don't come to the F9 boards singing the praises of WN and expect us to be quiet. I don't go to the WN boards and trash WN. Also, most of the numbers out of DEN show WN hurts UA more than F9 due to a higher amount of overlapping routes according to the press. Granted the Denver press has a bias against WN but they couldn't maintain credibility if it wasn't true on some basis.

Good call Indy.

WN's new boarding system is more orderly than any other airline's procedure. People line up in approximate numerical order within a group of 30 and file on board. Then the next group of 30 goes, and so forth. There's no scrum anymore. In fact, the scrum (and it really was a scrum back in the days of numbered plastic cards) ended several years ago with the A/B/C boarding system.

Please enlighten me where I have "trashed F9. I like their product and wish them well. If there is 'trashing' on this board I don't think you will find many WN posters trashing F9. Sadly I don't see the opposite

Please keep it polite and factual, not personal. Remember that this forum doesn't have a dedicated moderator, so the load falls on some very busy Senior Moderators.

I ask regulars of the WN forum to be extra sensitive and friendly here. F9 is having a rough year, as are several other airlines. Unwelcome change is everywhere. If we have useful information to contribute, that helps. If we don't, we shouldn't post. Do it as a favor to me, please.

You're right about the variation - boarding time does vary a little from city to city. However, boarding a 737 in roughly 10 minutes is quite doable. In Southwest's earliest days, they actually scheduled 10 minute turns - i.e. the plane spent 10 minutes total at the gate! Currently, WN schedules many of the smaller airports for 20 minute turns. In Harlingen (HRL), if the plane lands and has pulled up to a gate at time T, the first passengers are in the terminal by T + 90 seconds max. By T + 6 minutes all passengers are off the plane (unless there were several wheelchair pax); pre-boarding begins around T + 7 or 8 minutes, with A1-30 shortly thereafter. Even on full flights during the Christmas season, when it seems everyone has a carry-on present, WN is able to keep to 20 minute turns.

I apologies if anything that I said was taken as personal by anyone. Frontier has many fine qualities and I wish it and its customers only the best. They have not always done right by me, such as the Christmas 2006 snow storm mess, but overall, they are pretty good. I certainly do consider price to be a factor in any purchase decision and I don't like feeling I paid more for something than I should have. The change fee especially gets under my skin.

I hope that I have presented a factual account of how WN has improved the boarding process in November 2007. I can't say that its for everyone, but it is better than it used to be -- maybe enough that with these improvements, open seating really can be as good as assigned seating.

My hope is that Frontier will not go out of business. Competition is good for travelers. I have some opinions, which I have shared, on why I think Frontier is hurting. But, those are just my opinions.