When will Frontier Cease Operations
 

With several airlines going out of business..Anyone have any guesses when Frontier will go out of business?..Sounds like the credit card companies move was a smart one given all the airlines that have gone aout of business..Credit card companies are just trying to protect thier money,just smart business..@:-)

Frontier says they are bankrupt for different reasons than others were..Yeah..Hello..Fuel is going to wipe out some airlines..This just sounds like the natural evolution of things..Looks like mergers are again on the horizon..Should be an interesting few weeks ahead..Wasnt it about 1 week after ATA declared Ch.11 that they were shutdown? :eek:

Lots of airlines have emerged from bankruptcy without ceasing operations. Maybe Frontier can do so as well.

If UA can fly through bankruptcy for literally years, remain the terrible operation it is, and not cease operations, I would be very optimistic about F9's chances.

In 1986

Ohhh... you mean the current one :)

If you look at their BK filing they do have a cash cushion plus their debt is not that bad.

From my understanding, Frontier is just practicing smart business as well by using their (only) legal means to put a moratorium on the creditor's changes. I don't think the creditor should change its terms with Frontier as a reaction to the circumstances of other airlines, but that is their prerogative of course. The situation seems to be that Frontier could've continued to do business as usual without the change in terms, but since that change was about to be imposed, they found shelter in Chapter 11 specifically to avoid the fate of Aloha and ATA.

For now, I think conditions are favorable for Frontier to continue to grace the skies with its menagerie of tails. If their cash/debt/performance figures are really as they say they are, they may simply use Chapter 11 to renegotiate with their creditors and perhaps seek a few ways to become more streamlined and emerge a stronger airline. ^

When pigs fly :D

Do they have a plane with a pig on the tail?

Seriously, I bought a ticket Thursday evening and 4 hours later, I saw on the news they filed for Chapter 11. Luckily, the travel is soon so I am not worried.

What I wonder is "do you trust what management says" and if doing this will end up scaring away passengers and lead them down the wrong path.

That really is Frontier's biggest risk, I think: that people will refrain from buying tickets whenever there is a choice of another carrier.

Bingo.

Honestly, I'd never consider buying a ticket on a rinky-dink airline that is in the process of bankruptcy dealings.... US Air, United, sure.... no way frontier!

What's the textbook definition of "rinky-dink"? Froniter is a coast-to-coast operation with dozens of stations and thousands of pax daily.

Does anyone have their flight count out of DEN? They have roughly a quarter of the gates at Denver (certainly not a rinky-dink airport).

Cease
 

Well, three factors would answer this question -

1. Hysteria - The "when" and "what if" conversations will push business away

2. Liquidity - This being the principle reason for the CH.11 filing.

3. Investor Senitment - If the big bucks get skitsh, see points 1 & 2

Frontier is easily one of the healthier carriers in the industry and the CH. 11 filing is utilized as an instrument to remain healthy.

Just imagine your bank saying "Joe, I am sorry; but, starting April 15 we are going to hold 50% of your paycheck." Not quite an apples to apples view; but, offers a bit of perspective.

Essentially, First Data was forcing F9 to fly as a scheduled charter carrier would, using the holdback as a defacto escrow. If First Data feels this to be a business interest decision, they should apply the concept to all carriers which they service.

Outside of the fact that F9 is not designed to accommodate this accounting principle, it is a crippling disadvantage when toe to toe against WN and UA.

Based on the surly crews and aircraft with broken seats, inoperative IFE, and hydraulic fluid staining the wings that I encountered on US and UA while they were bankrupt, I would definitely call them rinky dink. F9, OTOH, has well maintained aircraft and generally friendly crews, and indeed out of DEN has more lift to many cities than any other airline, including UA or WN. F9 has not yet earned the subjective title of "rinky dink".

ATA shut down and filed for bankruptcy almost simultaneously (they finished off some flights from Hawaii back to the Mainland). Aloha filed about a week before shutting down.

Right on. ^ There is more pride in one F9 crew than in the entire UA organization.

NWA is another example of having flown for years while in Chapter 11.

Did UA and the others get federal assistance not to stop operations?

I'd doubt Frontier would be so lucky.

While it is true that UA, DL, NW and others meandered in bankruptcy for years, they did so under different bankruptcy laws. No airline (that I know of) has filed for Chapter 11 and successfully emerged since the law changed.

Effectively, yes. Statutory assistance to keep operating when the free market should have killed them.

Adios
 

Articles like this don't help matters:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...nkruptcy_N.htm

Notable quotes:

* "We do not see a future for Frontier as it faces tough competition in Denver from United on the network side and Southwest on the low-cost side," Calyon Securities airline analyst Ray Neidl said Friday.

* Frontier lost $32.5 million in last year's fourth quarter — more than double its loss in the same period the year before — and its fuel costs rose 22% from late 2006, according to a document filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court.

How bout AA with a rescue?
 

Seeing that UA has a "win" with the network, and WN with low fares, maybe AA can save Frontier.

With the likelihood that CO merges with UA (after NW/DL), AA will probably be shopping for a merging partner. Frontier might just be the right one. AS might be difficult due to no debt.

Jiburi

I wouldn't really call that "Saving" Frontier... AA would get a couple of new planes and routes, but everything that made F9 special would likely be roadkill in that merger scenario.

What about JetBlue? Despite their fiasco last year, I haven't heard any stories about them having problems due to fuel... are they fairly sound? B6 seems the closest to F9 in terms of philosophy, good crews, and similar equipment (though I hear they use different engines on their Airbii which could be a problem), and they don't have much route structure overlap. Every time I get on B6 I am surprised at how similar they feel to Frontier... if anyone is going to buy up my favorite carrier, I hope it's them.

The B6 and F9 merger rumor has been around for quite some time. Yes we have similiar aircraft, LiveTV and route networks that would compliment each other, I just don't think we are in a position to make any aquisition right now. So far we're holding our own with the current fuel storm but who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Lufthansa and UA makes no go for F9 & B6
 

I too thought of Jetblue but Jetblue has significant infusion from Lufthansa, a star alliance partner. UA, another star alliance partner, has a hub in Den. I doubt Jetblue would risk Lufthansa's support to join with Star Alliance's competing carrier Frontier.

Jiburi

F9, along with many airlines, received government loans to continue post 9-11.

F9 was the first airline to completely pay back their loan.

why isn't an airtran/frontier merger on the table?

I think AirTran is also treading on very thin ice. That mixed with a totally different fleet type and approach to business will stop that merger, i think. AirTran tried a 320 fleet with Ryan Air before their 73G's came online. I don't think they where too impressed, whether it was with Ryan Air, The A320, or both.

<shudder>

You must have not flown Frontier before to consider them a "rinky dink" airline. As many others have said, the plans are newer, clean and are far better than any of the other airlines I have flown on except Midwest.

As far as buying tickets, I bought my tickets for my trips on April 21st and May 11th two days after they filed chapter 11. I can't tell you if they will close their doors in the end, but I am not worried about it in the short term.

In terms of personal experience I have had with Frontier, if they can't make it, I don't know how any of the airlines can. The flights are great every time and every time I have called customer service, I couldn't ask for nicer or more polite people to deal with.

I have over 20K true flown miles with them so far this year so I am not basing my opinion on a single flight.