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What's the point of intra-Schengen passport checks on departure?

What's the point of intra-Schengen passport checks on departure?

Old Oct 15, 17, 7:43 pm
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What's the point of intra-Schengen passport checks on departure?

I flew TLS-FRA yesterday and was very surprised having to go through a checkpoint on departure with everyone's passport checked by the border police. And having to stand in a long line before that (with no separate EU/non-EU citizen lanes).

I understand France checks passports from inbound travelers in order to keep refugees and known terrorists away. But what's the point of checking passports of outbound travelers? If I had no passport, or a forged passport, or were a terrorist, I would have simply turned around and left - so it is only honest people who are hassled this way.

Is it merely a consequence of planes from Germany arriving at "non-Schengen" gates in order to have inbound travelers checked, or is it a conscious policy to also check outbound travelers, even if they fly intra-Schengen?

Sorry if it's old news - I always take the train to Paris, and my last flight to other French destinations was before the Paris attacks.
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Old Oct 18, 17, 12:57 am
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Really old news - already May/2016 every departing Schengen flight went through passport control, at least in NCE. Makes little sense, as the "bad guys" could just drive/take a train/walk/bicycle/etc out of the country.
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Old Oct 18, 17, 2:46 pm
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Originally Posted by cockpitvisit View Post
I understand France checks passports from inbound travelers in order to keep refugees and known terrorists away. But what's the point of checking passports of outbound travelers?...
France is hardly just 'keeping out' terrorists, it's now a major source of of homegrown violent muslims. Nowadays, the security services (who are under siege and stressed) are abiding by stricter agreements with partners to shape as well as monitor outbound routes.
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Old Oct 19, 17, 5:35 am
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Originally Posted by FlitBen View Post
France is hardly just 'keeping out' terrorists, it's now a major source of of homegrown violent muslims. Nowadays, the security services (who are under siege and stressed) are abiding by stricter agreements with partners to shape as well as monitor outbound routes.
More of the exaggerated rhetoric in the above? Not surprised.

The “security services”in France are really not under siege. At least not today. And every large country in Europe has been the source of homegrown violent actors for well over 70 years.

The “security services’” manual outbound checks don’t currently exist for most of my exits from France going into other Schengen destinations.

This month — even this week — I’ve been flying multiple times internationally from Paris to various Schengen zone destinations outside France.

Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 19, 17 at 5:44 am
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Old Oct 19, 17, 7:05 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
The “security services”in France are really not under siege. At least not today. And every large country in Europe has been the source of homegrown violent actors for well over 70 years...
Our situations are easier; we don't have any reason to go into the ZUS. So we're not really in their shoes. Emergency rule continues, their agencies have already warned about the possibility of a spiral into religious-civil war.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/277711...gainst-terror/

Police and servicemen are directly targeted/intimidated by immigrant Muslims-origin, sometimes even commanders in their own homes. Just as in the besieged areas of Syria and Iraq. That's why many are protesting about their unrecognized work and the worsening conditions they face.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36563002

...The “security services’” manual outbound checks don’t currently exist for most of my exits from France going into other Schengen destinations...
Well, of course. They don't have the time or people for pervasive security theater, they are too stretched to try that approach. The Israelis have been advising to concentrate operationally, as I said. The situation is very serious, and not just in your own personal experience, don't you think?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40178183

Last edited by FlitBen; Oct 19, 17 at 8:36 am
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Old Oct 19, 17, 8:28 am
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Just another FT thread exploited to spread anti-Muslim, anti-immigration narratives? Seems so, just like it seems so that people who want to feel under threat and scapegoat others will always find their excuses to try to do so. In the meantime the greatest threat to life and health in those “sensitive urban zones” in France continue to not come from terrorism, aren’t even unique to places with ZUS/SUZ categorization, and aren’t unique to places with lots of immigrants and/or relatively impoverished residents.

The point of the intra-Schengen outbound checks is this: to mostly be a dog and pony show in the name of “security” and to try to get a more complete sense of who is leaving or attempting to leave.
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Old Oct 19, 17, 9:01 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Just another FT thread exploited to spread anti-Muslim, anti-immigration narratives? Seems so, just like it seems so that people who want to feel under threat and scapegoat others will always find their excuses to try to do so...
I think the OP is just like most of us, wondering why rules that burden travelers continue to be enforced with no apparent security advantages. There's more to general security than just filtering for nasties at the borders, though.


...In the meantime the greatest threat to life and health in those “sensitive urban zones” in France continue to not come from terrorism, aren’t even unique to places with ZUS/SUZ categorization, and aren’t unique to places with lots of immigrants and/or relatively impoverished residents....
The national government sees ZUS as harboring disincentives to the investment that's necessary to uplift their communities. Peace and order plays its part, but disaffected populations are behaving perversely in too many cases. Islamists come in and raise the stakes, while the populist fronts aren't helping much.

...The point of the intra-Schengen outbound checks is this: to mostly be a dog and pony show in the name of “security” and to try to get a more complete sense of who is leaving or attempting to leave.
Yep, that was so until recently. Regional units have been taught to free up manpower for localizing surveillance. It seems to be working so far, more and more attacks are by loner amateurs (cross fingers).
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Old Oct 20, 17, 1:04 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Just another FT thread exploited to spread anti-Muslim, anti-immigration narratives? Seems so, just like it seems so that people who want to feel under threat and scapegoat others will always find their excuses to try to do so.
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Old Oct 22, 17, 5:22 pm
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Originally Posted by WilcoRoger View Post
Really old news - already May/2016 every departing Schengen flight went through passport control, at least in NCE. Makes little sense, as the "bad guys" could just drive/take a train/walk/bicycle/etc out of the country.


I've been checked already by French cops when entering France by car/train. I can't speak for walking/cycling over the border, but checks certainly do occur.
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Old Oct 24, 17, 11:03 pm
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Anyway France is still in an official "state of emergency" until November 30th.

The "useless" checks are just pandering to public opinion. But are they really useless? Who knows?

Since the state of emergency began, I have driven across the border at least a dozen times (usually to Belgium, Luxembourg or Switzerland) and have not seen a single member of the "police des frontières."
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Old Oct 25, 17, 1:39 am
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Suspects on the road and under surveillance can always be stopped or tracked on the other side, to allow for more 'flexible" arrangements. This can't be allowed much on major rail links in active cases. Asian and Euro Islamists have been too successful with just bladed attacks on transiting crowds.

Last edited by FlitBen; Oct 25, 17 at 1:49 am
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Old Oct 25, 17, 4:58 am
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Originally Posted by kerouac2 View Post
Anyway France is still in an official "state of emergency" until November 30th.

The "useless" checks are just pandering to public opinion. But are they really useless? Who knows?

Since the state of emergency began, I have driven across the border at least a dozen times (usually to Belgium, Luxembourg or Switzerland) and have not seen a single member of the "police des frontières."
It’s very easy to exit France to neighboring states without the French or other authorities knowing, if so interested and with adequately competency to go that way. The French and bordering surveillance state actors are far from omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, even when it comes to using ticketed means to travel.

Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 25, 17 at 5:06 am
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Old Oct 26, 17, 2:25 am
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That's true, they can't watch every mobile muslim given their limited resources. They are glad for whatever luck brings them, as with the foiled attack on banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41185913
"...We know they go to buy a camera, we know particularly they leave the hotel in the evening and they go off to spend a long time in front of the Eiffel Tower. Then they go back there the next day before setting off for Spain," he said, citing a study of the men's mobile phone geo-location...

The US has been aggressive lately and together with the Russians and local allies, the partners have scored intel breakthroughs that should provide some respite.

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-i...908-story.html
...In the most dramatic gain, U.S. officials over the last two months have added thousands of names of known or suspected Islamic State operatives to an international watch list used at airports and other border crossings...

Problem is, Islamists now rely on just terror operations, which tend to escape notice by the services.

Last edited by FlitBen; Oct 26, 17 at 3:09 am
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Old Oct 26, 17, 6:20 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Just another FT thread exploited to spread anti-Muslim, anti-immigration narratives? Seems so, just like it seems so that people who want to feel under threat and scapegoat others will always find their excuses to try to do so.

.....

The point of the intra-Schengen outbound checks is this: to mostly be a dog and pony show in the name of “security” and to try to get a more complete sense of who is leaving or attempting to leave.
As true today as soon after this thread was opened.
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Old Oct 27, 17, 3:37 am
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Let me caution that the recent victories will not quickly lessen the threat. Martial rule is still going to be regularized in part, because estimates of France's militant muslim population are rising fast, to a level near that of the unfortunate UK.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mi...-idUSKBN1AL0SM
France has seen 271 jihadi militants return from war zones in Iraq and Syria and all of them are subject to investigation by public prosecutors...

Non-European muslim terrorists actually find it easier to get around as refugees than as European nationals. The frequent attacks in Germany have shown what will happen if these operatives can cross undetected, hence the increased border checks. Israeli-style profiling and monitoring could be instituted at most entry points if things really worsen.
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